[Guide] Suddenly...a WILD UDYR appeared!

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Omesh

Senior Member

07-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
That's not entirely true...

The biggest difference between the two is the flexibility Tiger stance gains due to not having to put an early point into Phoenix, allowing you to figure out whether you need more damage, defense, or speed on your first gank.

Also, late game, Phoenix will probably deal more and take more damage on the front lines, whereas Tiger will be better suited for focusing down squishies.

This is primarily due to the items purchased in each build (AD for Tiger, Madred's for Phoenix)
Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
I'm not that experienced with TT, and I've NEVER jungled on that map. I might give it a whirl, but it seems to me that a dedicated jungler is just more of a liability than a benefit, but what do I know? I've played maybe 25 total games on TT.

...

I haven't a clue. Sorry! I'm just not a fan of TT because the ability for just ONE person playing poorly in ONE fight will lose you the game...SR isn't that un-forgiving, and doesn't force me to lose because of one person's mistakes, which is why I play SR almost exclusively.
No problem at all, and thanks for answering anyways. You're right on about TT being a lot more unforgiving, but like I said before I think TT also rewards good jungling even more than SR. That said, I think jungling on TT is much more difficult due to a lesser jungle with fewer creep camps and the absence of separate jungles for each team-- so learning to jungle on TT is probably a lot like learning to ice skate uphill. I've just seen TT games get blown apart by good jungling, and that's really my whole inspiration for picking up Udyr in the first place.

You're definitely right that one bad player makes winning considerably more difficult on TT. Which does make a jungler more of a liability if one person can't pull their weight in lane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
Well, although the jungling aspects may not be the same, the item builds, runes and masteries, and late game concepts should all be the same. Hope it helps!
Without a doubt it's given me a really great starting point. Much kudos for putting this whole thing together-- even though I'm now considering a Phoenix start instead of a Tiger start after getting some games under my belt. *ducks*


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Eledhan

Senior Member

07-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omesh View Post
Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.
You're welcome!

Quote:
No problem at all, and thanks for answering anyways. You're right on about TT being a lot more unforgiving, but like I said before I think TT also rewards good jungling even more than SR. That said, I think jungling on TT is much more difficult due to a lesser jungle with fewer creep camps and the absence of separate jungles for each team-- so learning to jungle on TT is probably a lot like learning to ice skate uphill. I've just seen TT games get blown apart by good jungling, and that's really my whole inspiration for picking up Udyr in the first place.
Well, thankfully, Udyr is a phenomenal counter-jungler, and has extreme survivability early game with Turtle stance.

You could probably do pretty good with him with minimal knowledge of jungling in TT.

Quote:
You're definitely right that one bad player makes winning considerably more difficult on TT. Which does make a jungler more of a liability if one person can't pull their weight in lane.
Yeah, the risks are much higher in TT...but it's entirely possible that the potential rewards are even greater than the risks, IF you do it right...

Quote:
Without a doubt it's given me a really great starting point. Much kudos for putting this whole thing together-- even though I'm now considering a Phoenix start instead of a Tiger start after getting some games under my belt. *ducks*
Thanks! I hope you learned a lot and can put the info to use!

I have to say though, that TT jungling would be best with Phoenix as the starting stance...and after the nerf to Tiger, it's probably better now on SR as well.

I've yet to determine a final conclusion regarding which stance is best for SR...it used to be Tiger (in my humble opinion), but now, I think it's so balanced that it's really up to which item build you like the most and whether you will be spending your time on the front lines fighting tanks (Phoenix), or flanking to get the squishies (Tiger).

Good luck with your training!!!


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Eledhan

Senior Member

07-27-2011

Guide Updated
Added the section "Twisted Udyr" for testing and building an Udyr guide for jungling on the Twisted Treeline. Any help with the testing and theory process would be greatly appreciated!


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Eledhan

Senior Member

07-28-2011

Guide Updated
Improved the section "Twisted Udyr" for testing and building an Udyr guide for jungling on the Twisted Treeline.

Any help with the testing and theory process would be greatly appreciated!

I have also updated the Skill order and priority section to indicate that you shouldn't put 5 points into Bear due to the diminishing returns it causes. Mathematically, it's simply not worth it to waste those 2 points when you could be putting them in Tiger or Phoenix.


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Omesh

Senior Member

07-28-2011

Hey, a TT section! Aces! I'm going to pat myself on the back right about now, if no one minds.

Here's my two cents on jungling Treeline:

1) Flash is absolutely better than Ghost here, hands-down, though I still will use Ghost on occasion simply because Flash takes a good deal more skill to use correctly. Epic Flash failures ruin games (e.g. attempting to Flash through a wall and instead just Flashing against it). Practice with Flash in custom games to get better with it if your Flashing isn't up to par-- it's what I've been doing.

2) Anyone coming into the game with Smite is a known jungler off the bat. That's true on any map. But on Treeline, the smaller size of the map and more importantly the jungle makes counter-jungling very easy for any savvy team capable of warding properly and figuring out your jungle paths. I've been shut out of games just by virtue of the other team denying me resources and XP by clearing out camps together before I can get to them, though that does have the added benefit of screwing with their own farming and leveling.

Point is, be careful. If you're being out-maneuvered in the jungle, go lane, no questions. If your jungling is putting your team behind rather than ahead, you need to be able to hop into the bottom or top lane and pick up the pace a bit. On this note you also need to know when to call on your team to help push your opponents out of the jungle so you can wrest control of it from them, and here I'd probably point out how wards on TT can be even more game-changing than on SR.

My experience with Udyr so far has shown that emphasizing Phoenix over Tiger is the way to go, with Tiger getting investment around level 10. The one problem with Phoenix is that you want to start with that skill first, and it's not as good for ganking, which is a bigger deal on TT by far. If your team's trying to do the BBGP (Bottom Bush Gank Party) thing, you're not quite a liability but you're not bringing as much to the gank as you could. It almost might be worth it to have a Bear start for the stun, but then you can't jungle as effectively. It's kind of a tough one. I will say that I've had reasonable success with the BBGP using Phoenix, since it does do a pretty significant chunk of damage even at the very start of the game, but people are going to give you **** over it if they think they know anything about Udyr whatsoever.

My observations thus far. Thanks for being awesome.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

07-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omesh View Post
Hey, a TT section! Aces! I'm going to pat myself on the back right about now, if no one minds.
Yep, go ahead!

If I decide that Jungling in TT is actually a viable strategy, then I will include your name in the section. If you continue to contribute to my analysis and experimentation on Twisted Udyr, then I'll try my best to give you credit where due.

Quote:
Here's my two cents on jungling Treeline:
Thanks in advance! I'm going to respond/expound on your points, even breaking it down into sentences where necessary. Please respond to my thoughts as you see fit! Between the two of us (and Bourge42o, if he decides to help me), I figure we can get a pretty good mini-guide for playing Udyr on TT.

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1) Flash is absolutely better than Ghost here, hands-down, though I still will use Ghost on occasion simply because Flash takes a good deal more skill to use correctly. Epic Flash failures ruin games (e.g. attempting to Flash through a wall and instead just Flashing against it). Practice with Flash in custom games to get better with it if your Flashing isn't up to par-- it's what I've been doing.
Good advice. However, I have to say, even when Flash fails in a critical moment, that doesn't completely obliterate the awesomeness it brought to your play all the other times you used it that game.

I think sometimes the best way to use Flash is to jump out of a skill shot, close the gap on a target, and to cut down on your travel time when trying to cross the map. It is assumed that readers already know where Flash will get them over a wall and where it won't.

That said, more practice doesn't hurt!

Quote:
2) Anyone coming into the game with Smite is a known jungler off the bat. That's true on any map. But on Treeline, the smaller size of the map and more importantly the jungle makes counter-jungling very easy for any savvy team capable of warding properly and figuring out your jungle paths. I've been shut out of games just by virtue of the other team denying me resources and XP by clearing out camps together before I can get to them, though that does have the added benefit of screwing with their own farming and leveling.
The reason I like Smite is because in TT, both teams are ALWAYS fighting over buffs. Having smite on your team greatly improves the chances your team will maintain control over the buff creeps. Run up on an enemy trying to get a buff? Steal it from them!

On TT, a buff stolen from the enemy but on the wrong ally champion is better than no buff on any ally champion and a buff on the correct enemy champ. Smite makes it easy for you to ensure buffs don't end up in the hands of the other team, at minimal risk to your team's safety.

To combat the enemy countering you, I'm considering a skill order specific to TT. I'm looking at starting out with Turtle, Bear, Tiger/Phoenix, Turtle, Tiger/Phoenix. This order allows you to maintain full HP (in the event you need to cover a lane), gives you an escape (Bear speed and stun), allows you to sustain lane control (Turtle), and you can actually gank early on in the game this way.

An alternative skill order would be Phoenix, Turtle, Bear, Tiger...then whatever makes the most sense afterward. This order would let you gank better if you can sustain your jungling beyond level 2-3.

Quote:
Point is, be careful. If you're being out-maneuvered in the jungle, go lane, no questions. If your jungling is putting your team behind rather than ahead, you need to be able to hop into the bottom or top lane and pick up the pace a bit. On this note you also need to know when to call on your team to help push your opponents out of the jungle so you can wrest control of it from them, and here I'd probably point out how wards on TT can be even more game-changing than on SR.
Remember, Udyr is a fantastic laning champion, and if he has to, he can simply switch to a laning / roaming role who just happens to have smite for securing buffs. I think starting with Turtle stance at level one might be the best route simply because he will be more secure.

However, massive damage from Tiger with 2x Long Swords on a single opponent would simply be devastating on TT fights...Just something to consider when we are playtesting stuff.

Quote:
My experience with Udyr so far has shown that emphasizing Phoenix over Tiger is the way to go, with Tiger getting investment around level 10. The one problem with Phoenix is that you want to start with that skill first, and it's not as good for ganking, which is a bigger deal on TT by far. If your team's trying to do the BBGP (Bottom Bush Gank Party) thing, you're not quite a liability but you're not bringing as much to the gank as you could. It almost might be worth it to have a Bear start for the stun, but then you can't jungle as effectively. It's kind of a tough one. I will say that I've had reasonable success with the BBGP using Phoenix, since it does do a pretty significant chunk of damage even at the very start of the game, but people are going to give you **** over it if they think they know anything about Udyr whatsoever.
Although I trust you have tried this, I would think that Tiger is going to be a MUCH better tool if you're not planning on going straight to jungling. The ability to just decimate a single target's health is probably more valuable in a level one fight than minor damage to the whole enemy team. Either that, or go with Bear and stun all 3 right at the start.

Quote:
My observations thus far. Thanks for being awesome.
Yeah, I'm gonna try Udyr in the jungle on TT a bunch in the near future...thank you for giving me something new to analyze!


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royal jystice

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Junior Member

08-16-2011

Laning Udyr? good bad different?


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Eledhan

Senior Member

08-16-2011

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Originally Posted by royal jystice View Post
Laning Udyr? good bad different?
Well, prior to the wriggle's fix (where they removed the fact that udyr could regen off of the proc), udyr was awesome in lane.

Now his early lane is still fairly powerful, but sustaining against strong harass isn't as easy since wriggle's doesn't heal him anymore.

Your best bet is to build some AD and mitigation items to keep your Turtle stance as powerful as possible...AD for the higher regen, and mitigation items for extended shield life.

I haven't really tried him out that much in lane, but when I did, it was prior to Wriggle's "nerf" and he was pretty insane. Now, though...I just don't have enough experience to speak with confidence regarding the current lane udyr.

Good luck, though!


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Xx LoupGarou xX

Junior Member

08-17-2011

Actually decided to play udyr as a laner for a while coz jungling was starting to bore me (dont kill me i solo q alot and feeding solo top happens xD)

i found that starting with boots and 3 health pots + bear was the most effective start due to udyrs naturally high speed, then level tiger and turtle (first 4 lvls bear, tiger,turtle,tiger etc.).

By staying in the brush and constantly harrasing with pre-tiger and bear its quite easy to zone champions out of lane with udyr, simply because of the burst damage of tiger and bear.

Also people expect udyr to play passive in lane (max turtle first) so not many people can deal with an aggresive bear/tiger combo. thoughts? (admitedly i prefer to have a carry that needs to farm in lane with me so that udyrs lack of farming plays out like an alistar or soraka in lane)


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Eledhan

Senior Member

08-17-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xx LoupGarou xX View Post
Actually decided to play udyr as a laner for a while coz jungling was starting to bore me (dont kill me i solo q alot and feeding solo top happens xD)

i found that starting with boots and 3 health pots + bear was the most effective start due to udyrs naturally high speed, then level tiger and turtle (first 4 lvls bear, tiger,turtle,tiger etc.).

By staying in the brush and constantly harrasing with pre-tiger and bear its quite easy to zone champions out of lane with udyr, simply because of the burst damage of tiger and bear.

Also people expect udyr to play passive in lane (max turtle first) so not many people can deal with an aggresive bear/tiger combo. thoughts? (admitedly i prefer to have a carry that needs to farm in lane with me so that udyrs lack of farming plays out like an alistar or soraka in lane)
Sounds like a viable strategy, but the focus of this guide is for jungling with Udyr.

Since I don't have much experience with lane Udyr, all I can do is speculate based on theorycrafting, which isn't anywhere near as accurate as playing roughly 50 games testing something.

I hope you do well with lane Udyr!