Stealth remake Q & A summary

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grouperish

Senior Member

07-12-2011

I just went through the thread where xypherous and Shurelia were giving details about the upcoming stealth remake. To make things easier for people, I've broken the various questions into categories and cleaned the questions themselves up. Answers are all quotes from Shurelia or Xypherous. You can see this summary, as well as other posts about design and development issues in LoL on my blog: http://devtracker.wordpress.com/

Eve
How will eve be changed, particularly given that she is melee?
We're addressing this with some kit stuff. For example, giving Evelynn a medium range harass ability (Lurker Spines) allows her to flit in and out of her "revealed" radius to harass opponents while being slippery and hard to find. Giving Evelynn a short-hop on ravage allows her to close the gap slightly faster, etc.

Won't Evelynn's abilities to initiate (since she has to get into melee range) be completely gimped by giving the enemy completely sight of her if she is within range?
We will also fix this with slight tweaks to her kit. (For example, giving Evelynn a short-hop type ability, giving her a medium range harass ability, etc.)

Given that she is getting her stun back, there are some concerns about having a gap closing stun. How does Riot address that?
(xypherous)We're trying to solve this by making it a short hop gap closer, which is somewhere around 250 to 300 units. By comparison, Vayne and Nidalee's "short hops" are 400 to 450 units long.
(Xypherous)A short hop is a short hop. Think Trundle's Q in how Trundle steps forward to bite the opponent at 250 range.
(Shurelia)Evelynn's dash-stun is currently the same range as Ravage.

Eve may also get a skill to allow her to scout brush:
I believe we're testing Evelynn with a utility spell that will enable her to brush check at a distance. (Similar to how Anivia's ice wall can be used to brush check)

How will it operate?
Its instant. (Does not travel)

What about the heal on Eve’s ult?
That was removed, but she is given a powerful short duration shied (~2 seconds) upon casting her ulti which will reward players for stalking close to champions and attacking without using the ulti to close.

Should we expect any changes to Evelynn's passive with this remake?
Yes.

What about eve as a jungler?
Hmm I haven't really thought about making her capable of jungling again. Right now she's a great roamer and can do well in the lane as well, where before she was pretty bad at laning.

Twitch
How will Twitch be affected, especially since he no longer seems to be an ambushing carry?
He's getting some sniper-ish powers that let him skirt the battle and takes shots at people.

What is his new role?
He's going to be an assassin with carry qualities.... I would see him as an inverse Vayne.


Twitch’s kit relies on attack speed to stack up poison stacks, how is this reflected in the changes?
Right now internally, Twitch's Q gives you the stealth passive at 1 point, then grants you active attack speed when used.

Is his poison being changed?
Hm. Last I checked, Twitch's poison at level 18 does 10 true damage per stack, stacking up to 6 times, for 6 seconds. 360 true damage for 6 stacks seems pretty good to me, but I could be wrong?

General
When will we see the changes?
ETAs are shaky, unfortunately. I can't give you a good estimate because of the platform instability going on. Sorry. :<

Why is stealth being reworked given other things that need work?
I don't disagree with you that we have a lot of things that need to be looked at. However, Stealth has been on the back burner for a *long time*. I assure you that we are aware of everything that you've brought up and we have other designers who are aware of those issues or actively working on them.
Additionally, if this stealth system works out well, this enables us to open design space for more stealth. We'll see.

With the new stealth, what will the level up incentives be?
They will be passive/actives. The new stealths will be coupled with other utility spells. We're trying a few things in the slot.

How will this affect other champions with stealth?
(shurelia)The stealth remake only applies to strategic stealth spells. Ones that have long durations.
(Xyppherous)Only long term stealth abilities will be changed. The others will probably be reworded as "invisiblity" to distinct the two. Short term tactical stealths are in a much better place currently.
How will this affect Lee Sin (specifically his ‘E’)?
Lee Sin should be fine just countering the short-duration stealth abilities. 'E' after all, is excellent for sweeping for Vayne's and Akalis.
How does this affect Shaco?
It will not initially. However, items that reveal stealth may be broadened a tad and Oracles may be on the block for being removed, so that will tangentially affect him.

How does this affect teemo?
Teemo will be reclassified as being 'invisible' after 5 seconds.

Why isn’t perma-stealth OP?
Read part 2: where if they are within 'X' units of an enemy champion, they are revealed.
In short, every champion has a slightly weaker version of oracles, but Eve and Twitch are always stealthed.

How will range for visibility (i.e. ‘X’ units) work?
I think X will be different for each champion, as Twitch is ranged.

Both stealth champs are currently very squishy, will they get some buffs regarding their surviveability?
We'll try to make it so that they don't instantly blow up, yes. Their combat viability needs to increase as they will be unable to ambush as well as before.

Visibility mechanic (icon over champion)
If Eve or Twitch enters into the stealth visibility range, do they have to enter the warning (yellow) state of vision or stealthed (red) state of vision to become stealthed again?
If Eve and Twitch haven't attacked, the instant they step of out the detection range, they will become stealthed again. If Eve and Twitch have attacked, they'll need to wait 2 seconds before they can become stealth.

How will two stealth champions (i.e. two twitches) interact?
You only see the gems if you can see the other person. So twitch would be able to see the other twitch if you were in range. It applies directly to who can see you or not.
Example: Twitch A is in brush. Twitch B approaches Twitch A. Twitch A seems a gem over Twitch B, but Twitch B cannot see Twitch A and therefore cannot see a sight gem.

How does the marker interact with brush?
The marker appears on top of *enemy* champions. Unfortunately, this diminishes Evelynn's capacity to brush check

How will this work for color blind people?
We have a color-blind QA/Dev expert here and we'll try to make the sight gems also have huge visual distinctions on the particle side. (Like, lidded eye, closed eye, open eye, etc.)

If the marker lets stealth champions know when they can be seen, even if a ward sees them, could this be used for ward hunting?
Gems only appear on top of enemy champions within 1400 units, so you'll need an enemy champion nearby that you can see to be able to "ward hunt" with this.

Oracles/wards/other vision issues
Will things that reveal sight, such as Orianna's Ball, reveal stealthed champions?
No, things that normally reveal sight do not reveal stealthed champions. Evelynn and Twitch will be revealed when they are within things with true sight or when they are within X units of an enemy champion.

Do allies share vision of stealthed units?
Once an enemy champion sees you, he shares that vision with his team, so everyone will see you. You will see the sight gem flare 'red' as everyone can now see you.

How does stealth interact with wards?
If the opponent has a pink ward, Evelynn may not be able to spot pink wards, but she *will* know if an enemy champion can see her, regardless of *how* they are seeing her.

What about oracles?
Items that reveal stealth may be broadened a tad and Oracles may be on the block for being removed

If you remove Oracle's, are you going to provide a replacement for players who like to be use oracles to clear enemy wards?
Ward-sweeping is viewed as a detriment to our game currently. It's one of the major problems we have to solve before this can be released as the status of Oracles is contentious.

Why, exactly, is ward sweeping seen as a detriment to the game? It seems like it comes at a pretty heavy cost.
It leads to long periods of inaction due to the need to sweep and a snowballing advantage for the winning team, especially at higher competitive play.

Stealth Changes
How will this affect stealth as an escape mechanic?
(Shurelia)Its still usable if you juke with it. You can fake going one way through a brush (since they cant see you at all in brush unless they're in it) and try to juke your way out of range to be out of their vision bubble. In addition, these characters are getting some mechanics to help them out in general; Evelynn's new stun will not be tied to stealth for example.
(Xypherous) Stealth as an escape mechanic will suffer quite a bit, but if Evelynn can open up the gap (even temporarily) to her vision radius units, she'll just disappear to the enemy.

What about teamfights?
In general, teamfighting has proven to be less interesting with stealth, but overall moving and positioning (especially in Jungle or TT) has proven to be much more complex for the stealth character.

How do these changes address the scouting issue?
We diminished the power of unlimited scouting in several ways:
1. You can't sneak up to scout someone in the brush, because they will see you before you can enter the brush.
2. Your scout is diminished because you are doing it from farther away.

It sounds like its harder to sneak around and get behind an enemy champion in lane?
It depends on the situation, but this trick is a lot harder to pull off in general. However, it might be possible if the opponent screws up his positioning enough for you to slip by the cracks in his detection range.

Remake process
Why didn’t you use a warning indicator for champions which shows when a stealth champ is in X range but doesn't reveal stealthed champion
Yes, this was paranoia. It was still generally unsatisfying to play against.

What about using stealth as a passive?
(xypherous)I think we wanted the level 1 gank attempt to feel as if it costed something, and that's why it's a level 1 passive/active, especially the free smite-steal at blue at rank 1.
(shurelia)Yes I did think about that for Evelynn, the reason why I didn't is so that she can't have stealth + a damaging/stunning move at level 1.

Why didn’t you use a gradient option (i.e. the closer Eve is to a champion the more hue she get, farther away means she is less visible) ?
(shurelia)The gems work well since its clear who can see you or not (especially with green->yellow). You would lose that with a hue option.
(xypherous)In general, hiding UI elements like the HP bar proved to just be confusing, unfortunately. Being able to see someone while being unable to target them at certain gradients was especially odd as well.

What about using the stealth mechanic on Lanaya Templar Assassin from Dota (i.e. you can stealth while standing still, but moving reveals you, leading to surprise attacks)?
I tried that for a while (standing still has a lower reveal range), but the spider-waiting gameplay was *really really frustrating to play against*.


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InfernalNasusBot

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Member

07-12-2011

Good work. I got tired of reading through 30+ pages of "Will it affect Teemo's passive?"


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Tadiken

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Senior Member

07-12-2011

you made me have the urge to main eve when you said "champions within XX distance from stealthed champs will reveal, but eve and twitch will be perma stealthed."


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Spencer

Senior Member

07-12-2011

Good compile!


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Narvuntien

Senior Member

07-12-2011

Thanks for this


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Sirius Derios

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Senior Member

07-12-2011

Bumped for the epic.


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Serneth

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Senior Member

07-12-2011

this man needs bumps


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Eefell

Senior Member

07-12-2011

Very good read, Im excited. *Kinda giddy* .............. GIGGIDY!


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Kathranis

Senior Member

07-12-2011

Fantastic work. Definitely deserves a little bumpitty bump and a thumps up.


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2xHero

Senior Member

07-12-2011

+1 for the effort you put into this. This is a good reference.