@Morello/Xypherous: Can we get an update on the stealth remake please?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Exosaria

Junior Member

07-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by hi7suji View Post
gimmie that wriggles for support! :-D
Suggested an idea for this in the past, also containing a similar stealth rework idea, but with a scaling stealth vision. It may be to late, but i think it still could help with the stealth rework.

Entire concept (EU tread): http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board...23#post2787223

Wriggles specific thread: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...3#post11356433


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sirius Derios

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by AkinToNone View Post
I don't know if Reds are still commenting, but I have a question concerning Teemo. Lets say I was Teemo, and I was invisible in the middle of my lane. Then, a stealthed Eve/Twitch enters my lane, and they enter my sight range to allow me to see them non-stealthed. Would their gems change color because I can see them, or would it stay the same because they can not see me seeing them. (like with brush)
The gems appear on enemy champs, not Eve/Twitch. So they wouldn't know they're being seen.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

mistermoo

Senior Member

07-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hm. Okay, well, I suppose it's been a while since I've given an update so I'll chime in on this a little [snip] Sorry for the delay, but with Orianna/Champion pipeline and such, this has been somewhat of a lower priority for me.
Please go through with these changes! They look great!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KidConfucius

Member

07-29-2011

how would this semi oracles that other people get in order to see stealth champs eve and twitch when they are near , effect people like shaco and his jack in boxes and teemo and his mushrooms?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Myocardial

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-29-2011

Why do I get the feeling that Xypherous is that guy who spends most his time off working still doing work?

Or maybe he's just/also very good at conveying the thoughts of his work to us in text.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Rakaydos

Senior Member

07-29-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius Derios View Post
The gems appear on enemy champs, not Eve/Twitch. So they wouldn't know they're being seen.
But if there was ANOTHER champ in the lane they could see, HIS gem would turn yellow as YOU were about to see him, and red as you DO see him. Same goes for Vision wards...

Which makes Eve and Twitch able to "spidey sence" wards and invisible characters even if they cannot see them themselves, if they have another opponent around to "read"


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Consulting Asian

Senior Member

07-29-2011

Forgive me if I sound like Dr. Phil with a recording device shoved into his throat. [Not a bad idea by the way.]


I certainly don't want to base presumptions on what is only being tested as it is now, but your proposed X-value in terms of sight would greatly decrease the associated phobia of "Mia Eve/Twitch", but how does this work in the true balancing issue for Eve and Twitch players?

When it comes down to it, Evelynn players as it is currently feel very underpowered, though we know from testing that this is not truly the case, from those practiced players at least. In a sense she did lose a little bit of her viability in terms of her stun removal in the current patches, and was made even "squishier" since her ultimate's heal was reduced dramatically.

I am all in favor of giving people who do dislike playing against Eve, even giving those in tournament play an easier way to deal with her, but there must be some due compensation other than a stealth that doesn't always stealth. Situational use of stealth and ambush was always an integral part of mastering these two champions, much like Corki's Gattling Gun or Rumble's heat management.



Here are some current issues that I believe should be resolved in some manner.


-Evelynn has very poor farm. Much of her gold income comes from assists and kills.

-[All ready being worked on] With the introduction of the current rework or some variation thereof, she would need increased CC or damage to allow her to still be viable, as her team play is extremely weak aside from scouting, which will all ready be diminished since bush camping isn't a foreign concept. [All ready being worked on]

-Increased itemization in terms of stealth reveal and ward reveal. These should be mutually exclusive or placed into a separate category that allows for both at increased gold cost, think heat detection.


A huge source of her damage is from sheen-effects, with Evelynn's horribly low health and current "yo-yo"-like gameplay, a decision must be made. Will Eve continue to bounce in and out of fights, or does her ultimate really need to be nerfed further to discourage aggressive game play all together.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mircy

Junior Member

07-29-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hm. Okay, well, I suppose it's been a while since I've given an update so I'll chime in on this a little:

Following up from last time, the general problem(s) with long term stealth was:

1. There was no way for the opponents to get an inkling of how clever the stealth player was being, and thus there was no good way to get a sense of how that player operates.
2. Stealth is claustrophobic in the way that it makes you play.
3. Stealth gives very powerful scouting information while simultaneously hiding that information from your opponent.

We tried some iterations past the first few tests, with Paranoia, alternate resource bars, footprints, phasing and mark systems but in the end, we settled on the current system because it was the simplest solution for long-term stealth. In short: "Everyone has reduced Oracles, but Evelynn and Twitch are perma-stealthed."

Some Partial Stealth Details

Disclaimer: I fully understand this destroys a *lot* of the current stealth gameplay changes. Unfortunately, through lots of iteration, I was unable to capture the feeling of pure invisibility while in stealth while having fun gameplay. In the end, I decided to opt for a very simple system that was highly understandable over some more fiddling mechanics.

1. Evelynn and Twitch are permanently stealthed when they rank their level one stealth abilities. However, Evelynn and Twitch can be seen when they are within X units of an enemy champion (Slightly under vision range), or when they are within a true sight radius.

If they attack, they are revealed briefly for 2 seconds before going back into stealth.

This 'X' is being adjusted for feel between the two champions. 'X' is smaller than champion vision radius, so you can "stalk" an opposing champion, but it will be farther away.

2. Evelynn and Twitch have a "sight gem" above opponent's, telling them when the enemy can see them or not and whether they are "safe" (green sight gem), "warning - you are close to being seen, but still unseen" (yellow sight gem) or "being seen" (red sight gem.)

Results

Long Term Stealth, in this case, has been removed as a primary initiation mechanic but allows Eve and Twitch to cross minion vision and regular sight bubbles with impunity and sneak into brush patches by circle/stalk their opponents. Their opponents can likewise spot-check areas with their own reveal radius and create zones were stealth characters "probably aren't, otherwise they'd be seen."

The sight gem allows the Eve/Twitch player to take much of the guesswork out of figuring out when they were being seen or revealed and allows them to put more of their thoughts on clever positioning and sneaking around their opponents, especially for lane ganks.

This also lets us make them more combat oriented characters that don't immediately blow up on start. In general, this stealth has proven to be very difficult to use but allows characters to have some bluff gameplay and interesting circle/stalk gameplay in testing. Your characters can still scout, but at a highly diminished effectiveness (due to the increased range.)

In team fights, stealth proved to be less effective than before, so the character's combat viabilities are being looked at through reworks/remakes.

What is blocking us on releasing this:

1. There's a pretty big problem with the concept known as Oracle-Sweeping. We'd want to replace Oracle's elixir with someone that doesn't cause such weird gameplay but as to what would be a *good* replacement is a little up in the air.

2. General particle/kit rebalancing work - We need to heavily redo Evelynn and Twitch's kits and that comes different visuals and graphical effects.

What I am testing right now - Additionally

Sight wards as being partial motion sensors - Sight wards signalling when a hostile is moving nearby?
"Robot Chicken" scout drone
"Wriggles" for supports?

I probably shouldn't do this but as compensation, some sneaks..

Evelynn can have her stun back, because now you have advanced warning of her when she steps in. She might need a short-step-stun in order to successfully initiate. Testing required. Twitch has proven to be a slightly harder problem in internal testing.

As an aside: Hate spike is now awesome (for me, at least). Evelynn now has Champion prioritizing Lurker Spines. This makes her lane less bad.

As usual, feel free to ask questions for a little bit as I stick around. I don't know all the details of the full remake (as Live better understands that new environment). Sorry for the delay, but with Orianna/Champion pipeline and such, this has been somewhat of a lower priority for me.
I was wondering if Hate spike can be improved on Evelynn, because as I play her I notice that Hate spike interrupts her auto attack. I had over 2.0 attack speed and it slowed my DPS rather then increasing it. Is it posiable to have it go off automatically without interrupting her auto attack with your ideas above?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vanssss

Member

07-29-2011

How will this affect Teemo's passive and his amazing jukes?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Rakaydos

Senior Member

07-29-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanssss View Post
How will this affect Teemo's passive and his amazing jukes?
Teemo's passive will be renamed to invisibility, to distinguish it from Eve/Twitch. Otherwise no changes to Teemo.