@Morello/Xypherous: Can we get an update on the stealth remake please?

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PsyRoseLight

Member

07-13-2011

I get it now u said it, ty

but before you said it i didnt know so i couldnt get it


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BionicSoup

Senior Member

07-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caladh View Post
They said they want to make the stealth active a utility ability, so doubt it will do damage, especially since it's supposed to be an instant cast+ranged, so if it was to deal damage, it would be an undodgeable aoe nuke (doubt they want her to be able to bush check often, so probably high cooldown and high damage).
As for ultimate, I bet they won't be giving her any movement speed on it, since it would destroy the whole idea of the stealth update, because again, she'd rush to you with ultimate close enough to use ravage to get right next to you and then instantly stun. In the right hands, same effect as currently against a player with oracle.

Yes, you're half right, I guess.
But at least now if they use their ult to initiate, then they don't have said shield to escape with. Also they are not going to regain health when they kill you, so it's much more dangerous for them to jump in on you like that if you're under a tower or in the midst of your team, etc.


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CaptainT

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Senior Member

07-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hm. Okay, well, I suppose it's been a while since I've given an update so I'll chime in on this a little:

Following up from last time, the general problem(s) with long term stealth was:

1. There was no way for the opponents to get an inkling of how clever the stealth player was being, and thus there was no good way to get a sense of how that player operates.
2. Stealth is claustrophobic in the way that it makes you play.
3. Stealth gives very powerful scouting information while simultaneously hiding that information from your opponent.

We tried some iterations past the first few tests, with Paranoia, alternate resource bars, footprints, phasing and mark systems but in the end, we settled on the current system because it was the simplest solution for long-term stealth. In short: "Everyone has reduced Oracles, but Evelynn and Twitch are perma-stealthed."

Some Partial Stealth Details

Disclaimer: I fully understand this destroys a *lot* of the current stealth gameplay changes. Unfortunately, through lots of iteration, I was unable to capture the feeling of pure invisibility while in stealth while having fun gameplay. In the end, I decided to opt for a very simple system that was highly understandable over some more fiddling mechanics.

1. Evelynn and Twitch are permanently stealthed when they rank their level one stealth abilities. However, Evelynn and Twitch can be seen when they are within X units of an enemy champion (Slightly under vision range), or when they are within a true sight radius.

If they attack, they are revealed briefly for 2 seconds before going back into stealth.

This 'X' is being adjusted for feel between the two champions. 'X' is smaller than champion vision radius, so you can "stalk" an opposing champion, but it will be farther away.

2. Evelynn and Twitch have a "sight gem" above opponent's, telling them when the enemy can see them or not and whether they are "safe" (green sight gem), "warning - you are close to being seen, but still unseen" (yellow sight gem) or "being seen" (red sight gem.)

Results

Long Term Stealth, in this case, has been removed as a primary initiation mechanic but allows Eve and Twitch to cross minion vision and regular sight bubbles with impunity and sneak into brush patches by circle/stalk their opponents. Their opponents can likewise spot-check areas with their own reveal radius and create zones were stealth characters "probably aren't, otherwise they'd be seen."

The sight gem allows the Eve/Twitch player to take much of the guesswork out of figuring out when they were being seen or revealed and allows them to put more of their thoughts on clever positioning and sneaking around their opponents, especially for lane ganks.

This also lets us make them more combat oriented characters that don't immediately blow up on start. In general, this stealth has proven to be very difficult to use but allows characters to have some bluff gameplay and interesting circle/stalk gameplay in testing. Your characters can still scout, but at a highly diminished effectiveness (due to the increased range.)

In team fights, stealth proved to be less effective than before, so the character's combat viabilities are being looked at through reworks/remakes.

What is blocking us on releasing this:

1. There's a pretty big problem with the concept known as Oracle-Sweeping. We'd want to replace Oracle's elixir with someone that doesn't cause such weird gameplay but as to what would be a *good* replacement is a little up in the air.

2. General particle/kit rebalancing work - We need to heavily redo Evelynn and Twitch's kits and that comes different visuals and graphical effects.

What I am testing right now - Additionally

Sight wards as being partial motion sensors - Sight wards signalling when a hostile is moving nearby?
"Robot Chicken" scout drone
"Wriggles" for supports?

I probably shouldn't do this but as compensation, some sneaks..

Evelynn can have her stun back, because now you have advanced warning of her when she steps in. She might need a short-step-stun in order to successfully initiate. Testing required. Twitch has proven to be a slightly harder problem in internal testing.

As an aside: Hate spike is now awesome (for me, at least). Evelynn now has Champion prioritizing Lurker Spines. This makes her lane less bad.

As usual, feel free to ask questions for a little bit as I stick around. I don't know all the details of the full remake (as Live better understands that new environment). Sorry for the delay, but with Orianna/Champion pipeline and such, this has been somewhat of a lower priority for me.
Oh good let's make the only two stealth champions in the game even worse.


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Caladh

Member

07-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by BionicSoup View Post
Yes, you're half right, I guess.
But at least now if they use their ult to initiate, then they don't have said shield to escape with. Also they are not going to regain health when they kill you, so it's much more dangerous for them to jump in on you like that if you're under a tower or in the midst of your team, etc.
All in all, it would be the same. The only thing that would change is when you can take more damage - after a kill or during the initiation, since the shield kind of increases your effective health, just as healing does. Also, that would mean further nerfs, as the 'refresh when any enemy champion dies' part would have to be removed, since then you could get even better results than now.


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Gubbinz

Member

07-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
It leads to long periods of inaction due to the need to sweep and a snowballing advantage for the winning team, especially at higher competitive play.
In my experience, the enemy team having oracles only forces us to 1) buy more wards 2) try to kill the oracles holder 3) use our CV/vision granting abilities. This is definitely a snowballing advantage for the winning team.

But, doesn't ward sweeping force objectives and action? And, wasn't it just recently that you guys were worried about the abundance of warding causing stagnant laning phases? Can you give any info on how you might be addressing this?


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GodEmperorLetoII

Senior Member

07-13-2011

Holy **** that stealth remake sounds pretty fun, can't wait thanks for the update, Xy!


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Ludak021

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Senior Member

07-13-2011

can't you just make oracles elixir NOT visible over enemy's head (unless Eve/Twitch have one too) and leave the stealth as it is or similar?

Make wards, in general, cheaper (or last longer) to encourage their use? Maybe make them "a pack" like for 75 you get 3 wards, or you get to choose, one 75, "3 pack" 150g? Something in that direction? It's not because of stealth, it's because casual players don't want to ward yet it is a huge part of gameplay and it's mechanics that is not being utilized at the moment (except for "serious" matches). Not all of us are striving to be competitive, most of us play a match or two for fun and it's not fun arguing over the wards and consequences of not warding AT ALL

I like the hate spike very much thou I don't like twitch, just in general, I don't like him. If he is on enemy team I always ask to swap for a lane where he is at. I just hate rats. Must kill twitch :P


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Xyrne

Senior Member

07-13-2011

Ehhh, I dunno. It's better than nothing but it sounds like the sight range is too large for Eve to actually initiate a gank on anyone but more than large enough for her to be in faceroll range of others like Xin.

Also why permanent stealth? Wouldn't making it a toggle ability make more sense? Y'know, since some of us want to look at our skins sometimes.


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Mic Wigger

Member

07-13-2011

so this is going to make teemo passive useless now


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NakedGranny

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Senior Member

07-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
omg real information from a red name
so....

what about Teemo (and shrooms!), Akali and Shaco (and boxes!)?