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A possible way to make Garen viable again.

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Yuchiel

Senior Member

07-01-2011

Well, the problem I see with your remade kit is that even if you are giving him an incentive to auto-attack, he does not have any synergy and cannot use his skills effectively.

Picture a scenario where you are in a teamfight. Do you auto attack in order to build stacks and then use Demacian justice? Or do you use Judgment to deal AoE damage? If you go for the former, then the change would be useless, as it only adds a requirement to use his previously accessible ultimate. If you go for the latter, you'd still have to build stacks in order to finish someone off and by the time you get enough stacks, most characters will have fled the fight.

Another problem I see with your suggested remake is that your new E encourages Garen to build attack speed, which by itself adds another stat that Garen must have in order to be effective. It does not compliment his playstyle in any way.

Lastly, making Judgment his ultimate would reduce his early game potential considerably, as his main form of damage would be locked until lvl 6. You would be trading a fantastic early game for a mediocre scaling if your remake is put into place.

What I would suggest is to allow his new Judgment to apply Demacian Justice stacks, so that his ultimate would actually be useful instead of just doing damage. That would remove the need of auto-attacking his enemies one by one, and Garen would be able to intimidate squishies by "marking" them with his Judgment. Also, this would lessen the need to build attack speed and would promote getting tanky items (So that you could survive in order to finish off someone with Demacian Justice) or damage items (So your Judgment is more effective). This would make Garen less of a hassle to build effectively and would allow him to scale a bit better without depending on too many stats.

I really think that your remake would go a long way on making Garen more viable, but it needs some adjustments in order to make him truly good.


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Coopykins

Junior Member

07-01-2011

Thanks for the great insight! I like the idea, and you're right when you say I wasn't exactly thinking on the synergy part. Before when I made this post I had it so that when Demacian Justice was executed on an enemy it slowed them (mainly so you could keep yourself in range for Judgement.) but I thought it would be more of a gimmick than anything and would encourage wrong use of the ultimate. (Slowing one person in order to use the ult on just them.)
So I do like the fact that ticks can give stacks on Demacian Justice. Would it be one stack per tick, or?


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Yuchiel

Senior Member

07-01-2011

I think 1 stack per tick would do it since it's 5 stacks maximum (right?) and ticks apply once every half-second, so it wouldn't be too difficult to apply the full stacks to a designated target.

The only problem I can see is that any form of CC will be able to take him out of action now that he has Judgment as his ultimate (Not that he is immune to CC in his current state, but Judgment having a longer cooldown could gimp him against a CC-heavy team).

Perhaps reverting Judgment to it's slow immune state (now that it's an ultimate) could help him, or if that results too imbalanced, maybe adding CC reduction to his Demacian justice passive and removing the attack speed (now that he applies stacks with Judgment) would be a better alternative. It could prove a little overpowering, but I think it's something that should be considered.


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Coopykins

Junior Member

07-01-2011

I've decided to completely revert him back to normal, with Demacian justice as his ultimate once more. But now I've changed it to fit his aggressive playstyle so that it does as we mentioned before! Read the original post if you'd like to see how I made it work out.


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Coopykins

Junior Member

07-02-2011

Bump, I like how the revised ult came out.


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Vuther

Senior Member

07-02-2011

Seems like a good idea to keep his ultimate scaling, but I am unsure on the numbers (too much or too little, it is beyond me), and Judgement will still be a rather lacking late-game ability on it's own - as Garen's main source of damage, that can't stand.


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Yuchiel

Senior Member

07-02-2011

I looked at your revised post, but I still have some questions.

The only change that I can see with this proposal is that his Ultimate now requires you to attack the target with auto-attacks or Judgment. This means that you can no longer use it to finish off an enemy that you have not damaged before. You only added a requirement to use this skill without compensating in any way. In this sense, it would be a nerf to his ultimate.

While you could, in theory, do more damage to squishies because Demacian Justice no longer scales off of missing HP, it would be a flat out nerf against bulkier opponents. Another thing to consider is that this build would only encourage Garen to build tank items, as Judgment applies the stacks regardless of the total damage done by it. Garen's only concern would be to stick close to the target. In your previous suggestion, Garen could afford to build AD because Judgment was his ultimate, and was supposed to scale accordingly, but by reverting it, there is no reason to build AD anymore.

Honestly, I liked your previous suggestion better, but I guess that this change does buff Garen against squishy characters, but makes him less useful against tanky champs. I feel that this change would make him less versatile overall.


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Coopykins

Junior Member

07-02-2011

I wanted to, as a whole, make him a better team fighter. I could possibly make the damage on his ultimate percentile based, as Garen is a bruiser, but I didn't want to make him overpowered. What are your suggestions towards this?


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Yuchiel

Senior Member

07-02-2011

Well, if you make his ultimate percentile based, then it would be no different from the Garen we currently have right? (Unless we're talking about using Demacian justice to shave off a % of HP initially, which would turn it into an initiator rather than a finisher)

I feel that the current issue with Garen is his atrocious scaling with everything. The only way to fix him while keeping his current concept would be to buff his scaling to a point where he can get decent damage from AD items and can get enough survivability from Tanky items.

The problem with just buffing his numbers would be that he would still be classed as inferior because other champions can do the job better while having much more utility (Xin Zhao, Brolaf, and Trundle come to mind). Unless Garen's scaling is OP, he'll never have a place with such low utility and CC.

I liked your suggestion of switching his Demacian Justice with his Judgment because it made him able to pump out decent damage while having some uniqueness in that his ultimate would be used to "tag" several opponents so that you could deal the final blow with Demacian Justice (That made him have a sort of AD AoE style that most bruisers do not have), but if you want to keep the kit as it is, perhaps adding some CC or utility could do the trick without breaking him.


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Coopykins

Junior Member

07-02-2011

Well, I did make it so Judgement still "tags" opponents, except now Judgement is back to a normal E ability instead of his ult. His ultimate would be like Twitch's expunge, that's how I originally compared it. Basically, he would run in, deal damage with Judgement, then use his ultimate to hurt those who were caught in it to get Justice stacks.

Perhaps if I changed it so only Judgement gave justice stacks (instead of Judgement AND autoattacks.), and once someone had them they would be slowed by a certain amount? For instance, Garen runs in and uses Judgement on the enemy team to initiate. Judgement is the only way to give Justice stacks, and one tick is all it needs to slow. More stacks is more of a slow, and therefore Garen can keep the enemy team inside his Judgement and Ult range. The stacks disappear once he uses the ult, as with the slow.

Best part is, once his ult is on cooldown enemies cannot be slowed by Judgement because there are no stacks to give, so it won't be too overpowered. If you use Judgement on a singly enemy while your ult is up, you can slow the person but you won't want to use your ult because that would be a total waste, and the utility would be gone once a team fight comes around.


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