Last Whisper vs Black Cleaver

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Pizowned

Junior Member

04-07-2010

What would be a better choice? or is it situational? lets say for Sivir


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Zirun

Senior Member

04-07-2010

For Sivir, Last Whisper would be the better of the two. The bounces on her attacks do physical damage, which will benefit from Last Whisper's armor penetration, whereas only the original attack would proc the armor reduction of Black Cleaver.

Sivir already gets a large boost to her attack speed from her ultimate, though, so getting even more attack speed (instead of damage or even crit, if you're building her for straight DPS instead of support-y) is kind of 'meh'. Still, Last Whisper is a very solid item for its cost.


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Angry gorilla

Senior Member

04-07-2010

I think black cleaver is only Good on people such as Jax and ESPECIALLY warwick. other than them 2 and maybe a couple others, id buy last whisper.


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kjgkjgkgklfgl

Senior Member

04-07-2010

black cleaver is good on characters that can spam one-enemy attacks - such as trist, twitch, warwick etc...

last whisper is good on characters that can't spam attacks - panth, jax (thouh no one would get it), etc...


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Voidgolem

Senior Member

04-07-2010

Last Whisper - Armor pen will presumably cause your first hit to hurt more, which carries over to ricochets.

Black cleaver, as mentioned, only works on initial target (Though assuming armor's not being stacked, reducing it by 60 is usually more than 40% penetration)


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Pizowned

Junior Member

04-07-2010

ah i see. I usually get black cleaver cause i play sivir as a physical carry. If ya have ever played against me as sivir ya know what im talking about . but ill start using last whisper more if it applies to all her hits. it'd be a lot more beneficial when im atking the whole group.


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blackjackz

Senior Member

04-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirun View Post
For Sivir, Last Whisper would be the better of the two. The bounces on her attacks do physical damage, which will benefit from Last Whisper's armor penetration, whereas only the original attack would proc the armor reduction of Black Cleaver.
Have you tested that out? Coz I dun think it works that way. Last whisper dont even work on Gangplant's parrely and Ezreal's skill which are suppose to carry item effect.

You do more damage on first hit does not means it will actually got carry over, and if it works that way, then actually that should work on black cleaver as well (BC raise first hit dmg and it pass thru). Need somone who tested it out and remember last whisper give 20 dmg, take that into account.

As of difference between the 2. It's more situational than dependent on champs.

***target under 120 Armor, Black Cleaver is better assuming you have armour pen runes.

target 120 to 200 Last Whisper.

200+ you need both, or go fro buturalizer / last whisper.

I did lots of math in excel to figure this one. I play mainly DPS champs.


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Zauren

Senior Member

04-07-2010

Everyone is forgetting the whole team benefits from the Black Cleaver target. Last Whisper lacks this.

But I'd just get whichever you need more. If you have plenty of AD, get a Whisper. If you lack AD, get a Cleaver.

Although if you are going Whisper, make sure nobody has Stark's first. Starks > Whisper if your team needs it.


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Ballpooner

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Senior Member

04-07-2010

If I have done the math correctly, then you need 150 armor (without any extra armor penetration and assuming you can apply the stacks rather quickly for Black Cleaver) for Last Whisper to reduce the same amount of armor that Black Cleaver does. Granted there are trade offs for both: Last Whisper being 1.1kg cheaper, not having to attack one target 5 times in a row to receive the full armor mitigation, and having +40% AS versus BC doing 55 more attack damage. Also, unless the other team is stacked with tanks (2 or more) that are stacking armor AS WELL, you do not need to get a Last Whisper because it does not reduce all that much armor, especially if you have armor penetration runes and you do not have the Sunder mastery.

Common items that I have seen Sivirs use instead of Last Whisper or Black Cleaver are: Stark's Fervor (especially if you have another physical carry on your team) or Bloodthirsters fill that Attack Damage and physical carry spot very well.

The character I usually main, Tristana, I would definitely ignore both at the start and focus on rushing an Infinity Edge because of the larger increase in dps you gain from it over Black Cleaver, even considering the cost. I hope these tips help and give you a different perspective on this matter.


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Ballpooner

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Senior Member

04-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackjackz View Post
***target under 120 Armor, Black Cleaver is better assuming you have armour pen runes.

target 120 to 200 Last Whisper.

200+ you need both, or go fro buturalizer / last whisper.

I did lots of math in excel to figure this one. I play mainly DPS champs.
Firstly, you need to remember the order of how armor penetration is applied in this game. Armor reduction (like the Black Cleaver) is applied first, then Armor Penetration (runes, Brutalizer, etc.), and finally % Armor Penetration (like Last Whisper). Therefore, the enemy you are fighting needs to have a lot more than 120 armor for Last Whisper to break-even, per se. Taking full armor penetration marks and three points into sunder into consideration, then that is another 24 armor that the tank needs to be equal to the amount of armor reduction that Black Cleaver applies. From my earlier calculation, that is 174 armor without any auras or any other items that reduce or penetrate armor because Last Whisper is always applied last, from my knowledge.

For Black Cleaver, you also need to consider your Armor Penetration Runes and innate talents when considering the purchase of a BC because BC is applied first (and can go negative), but your runes and Sunder (I think sunder is applied at the same time as your runes) can do no additional damage or minimal extra damage for you if your target is already at, below, or fairly close to 0 armor. However, with a team full of physical dps, then someone should probably invest in a BC to make your team's dps gain a lot higher than your personal gain.

On an unrelated note, your spelling hurts my head. >.<