"No retreat, no surrender! Death or Glory!!" and why it doesnt 'quite' works in LoLs.

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paShadoWn

Senior Member

06-23-2011

Basically it works if:
- you have endless supply of expendable troops
- you have troops that may receive sudden, considerable boost in stats from morale.

Examples:
- Soviet "zagradotryad", big guys with mashineguns who were herding feeble drafted civvies into carnage, or fabulous Imperial Guard
-Space Marines or Republic Troopers, who after being kicked by the Emperor or Force improve their performance considerably (good illustration here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuPA2OgylO0)

What do we have in LoLs? a static set of stats, which changes from the farm not courage. And a predictable set of combos, few of which go beyond double-triple chains. From here rizes a chainfeed syndrome: they charge in bravely, get slaughtered because opponents have better stats and do not chicken with the fumbling hands.
(@ all those proponents of "irresistible" mind tricks: closed mind. All that could be achieved with mental attack @ level these "controllers" wield is light to heavy headache)
Then they courageously charge in again and get all massacred with greater ease (because their opponents bought from previous feed); they repeat it a few times then surrender.
Those who view healers (4ex.:Soraka) as weak are victims of this "rabbid dogz CHAAAARRRRRGE" paradigm; they do not understand why they feed (for ex.: they charged in tight pack like rabid dogs and caught a Brand ult; they charged like rabbid dogs all game and have no items); they do not understand what would happen if they go and farm instead.

All the LoL champions are roughly divided into rabbid dogs who thrive in stupid slaughter and those who prevail by staying alive. The most opposite examples of these, as i see it, are Tryndamere and Soraka.
Tryndamere who got around 4-7 kills becomes the unstoppable slapdoom of pwnage; if through all game he killed no one, he is weak and have almost no impact.
Soraka, of all champions in LoLs, have best toolset to prevent allies from dying (not stupid feeders, of course; but that is an extreme case) and very good farming skills; she dominates in drawn-out game where almost no one dies and focus is on creep control. In such environment the champions of chaos are weakened because they cannot live on creeps alone, and most of times certainly defeated mid or lategame.

The one exception to this is Warwick; this bastion of anywhere-survival thrives in any tactic set, on any map, because he grows immensely from slaughter (surpassed only by those like Jax and Tryndamere) and becomes immortal with well-timed heal. In my recent game our Warwick fought 1v4 after all others died and got himself a triple kill because i, as Soraka, rushed in when he was at ~100 hp and oom.

My advice to all new players is: before learning to kill, learn to live.
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4427...0TV_%5Beztv%5D


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Force of Nurture

Senior Member

06-23-2011

You know what the only thing more annoying than a chain feeder is? People who back off when there really is no reason to, just because they're scared for their KDRs, and end up getting the rest of their team killed because everyone committed to the teamfight. The only way you'll get to be a good player is if you're able and willing to judge when you can win a fight with one or two bars left, and go in without hesitation during that window so you don't lose the opportunity.

Not that I encourage feeding or anything, but I'd rather have someone start out playing overly aggressive and transition into a smart aggressive player that can go for those clutch plays, rather than have someone that starts out passive and transitions into the unreliable type of teammate that won't engage after a perfect initiation from his tank until the window of opportunity is long gone.


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FF7HIGHWIND

Junior Member

06-23-2011

A little long winded (no offense meant) but you make a good point, getting kill happy isn't a good thing.

I do think though that you example of people just rushing into the slaughter is a little extreme, but maybe I've just been lucky and haven't had that happen unless someone on the other team gets really fed.


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SuperCheapJoe

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Senior Member

06-23-2011

I think staying alive is the best course of action. If I have a choice between a risky kill and surefire farm, I'll take the farm most of the time. Let the other guy make a mistake, and when he does you capitalize.


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paShadoWn

Senior Member

06-23-2011

@ Force of Nurture: the points are true and fair; i myself suffer from that hesitation sometimes (though i also sometimes suffer from insanity seizures, hysteria, trembling hands and such. Comes from willingfully playing with open heart and mind and not having that much spiritual pressure as Zaraki Kenpachi).

That is why the skill of "hanging on the borderline" is important: always staying slightly out of reach and/or sight, not running farther away than it is required to live, and always seeking for weakness or free farm to seize. I, who started with Soraka, know this skill to such a heights that sometimes i walk through swirling teamfights and no one attacks me, as they see it would be futile. "Walking the edge", a skill that i have not seen present in too many players.

If one player walks away while other four charge in to die, it does not always means he wasn't right. Pressing slight advantage to success with bloody sacrifices - or simply grow it little longer if it grows, then go for clean wipe? Discerning whether your advantage is growing is much easier than see if very close brawl succeeds. Tiny advantage is all too easily negated by the random hand of fate. Like a fumble or almighty Disconnect.

A great historical example of to what the "close" "victory" may lead is the ruined remnant of USSR in which i live. Soviets have, through bloody sacrifices of billions, broken the core of Nazi power, then USA swooped in and lasthitted. And took the most valuable l00t, winning that war. It is oftentimes better to retreat intact than die and see your cause killstealed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory
A good example of this would be "closely" "winning" at a brawl vs one or more champions of chaos. Who would revive, finish their IE or such, and come back for another "close" "defeat". Then they would come and stomp your nexus.


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paShadoWn

Senior Member

06-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by FF7HIGHWIND View Post
A little long winded (no offense meant) but you make a good point, getting kill happy isn't a good thing.

I do think though that you example of people just rushing into the slaughter is a little extreme, but maybe I've just been lucky and haven't had that happen unless someone on the other team gets really fed.
Aw shade, wrong server forum XD Should goto make copy at EU XD

Gets really fed from what? The very same rushing, blindly walking or staying in the death. I see chainfeeds almost each odd game, mass chainfeeds included. Another case of the same thing: unwillingness to live.

It is true that through sacrifice you can conquer more; for greedy, sly killstealers who would laugh at your corpse, or stupid children who would waste what you conquered because there is no father left to teach them. In terms of LoL, it means the trolls and newbies who would be left as ignorant because all they did was to lasthit after your death. Retreating from worthy opponent or carrying the fools and trolls? I did both, and former felt much better.


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Tinýviel

Member

06-23-2011

Uh you're conveniently leaving out the part where the USSR joined forces with the Nazis and Hitler until Hitler "backdoored" him at the USSR's "towers" in central Asia.

And the USSR gave away their own loot - East Berlin sucked to live in, West Berlin was awesome and eventually everyone realized the USSR as a concept was terrible and it disintegrated. Communism might have been better than Czar Nikolai but it sure as hell aint better than Capitalist democracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paShadoWn View Post
@ Force of Nurture: the points are true and fair; i myself suffer from that hesitation sometimes (though i also sometimes suffer from insanity seizures, hysteria, trembling hands and such. Comes from willingfully playing with open heart and mind and not having that much spiritual pressure as Zaraki Kenpachi).

That is why the skill of "hanging on the borderline" is important: always staying slightly out of reach and/or sight, not running farther away than it is required to live, and always seeking for weakness or free farm to seize. I, who started with Soraka, know this skill to such a heights that sometimes i walk through swirling teamfights and no one attacks me, as they see it would be futile. "Walking the edge", a skill that i have not seen present in too many players.

If one player walks away while other four charge in to die, it does not always means he wasn't right. Pressing slight advantage to success with bloody sacrifices - or simply grow it little longer if it grows, then go for clean wipe? Discerning whether your advantage is growing is much easier than see if very close brawl succeeds. Tiny advantage is all too easily negated by the random hand of fate. Like a fumble or almighty Disconnect.

A great historical example of to what the "close" "victory" may lead is the ruined remnant of USSR in which i live. Soviets have, through bloody sacrifices of billions, broken the core of Nazi power, then USA swooped in and lasthitted. And took the most valuable l00t, winning that war. It is oftentimes better to retreat intact than die and see your cause killstealed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory
A good example of this would be "closely" "winning" at a brawl vs one or more champions of chaos. Who would revive, finish their IE or such, and come back for another "close" "defeat". Then they would come and stomp your nexus.


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paShadoWn

Senior Member

06-23-2011

USSR and Nazi did not "joined forces"; they have fairly shared l00t from weaklings that laid between them; sudden attack in Central Europe was frontal and qualifies as "gank" not as "backdoor"; USSR did not "gave up" their l00t: they walked into Berlin, saw the full strength of U.S. Army over river and decided not to take their chances. They indeed faltered to conquer much faster than well-timed backdoorers. Although it is true that for some reason people in Eastern Germany felt oppressed and rebelled afterwards. Perhaps because USSR was drained of resources and had to pillage and overwork these lands? and hatred to the Soviets who done out most hurt was much more deeper? It may have had something with "sucked", too; was there a grey land of drain?.. The lands of drain have one advantage, though; most of mind tricks are much weaker there.

P.S. Please, do not suspect me of being "agent" or acting on someone's orders; you have trained me as summoner, and spirits from that war call to me, desiring to be heard. It is around 22 of June, after all.

And it is strange to see someone with High Elven name speaking like a troll.