Doran's Items: Why so Popular?

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PhoenixBomb

Senior Member

04-01-2010

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Originally Posted by Whatev View Post
For Mundo it depends to some degree on how soon you think you'll need a Spirit Visage.
Sure. Like I said, it's subjective. Mundo is just an example of someone who doesn't necessarily NEED a doran's item to survive early game, but rather can use it to push his early game limits.


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FeLpZ

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Senior Member

04-01-2010

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Originally Posted by Zombie Irwin View Post
Dorans items rule in TT. No other item is as strong out of the gate except maybe ruby crystal for some champs
potions provide more attack damage and health by far.

on some champions, like twitch, dorans really rocks.. +health, +hregen, +armor.. your main build will have to wait but you will be so much stronger early game with a d item.


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Cybergoblin

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Senior Member

04-01-2010

Doran's IMHO are the best item you can buy for getting a kill early on.

If you get 1 kill its paid for itself + interest. You now are higher level than your enemy in addition to having money plus a fear-struck opponent.

They are also probably the best item for not getting killed early on - which would put you behind in levels and in money since you are lacking minion kills.

I use to think that they weren't worth it but now I buy it on every champ I play and usually get early kills a lot more than not.


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Whimsicali

Junior Member

04-01-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyGin View Post
Just to address your points in turn:
1 - So what if they cant upgrade? They are more cost efficient than any other combination of items for the stats you get. Just a quick example:
Dorans ring = 5 mp/5, 10 ap, 120 health 2 of them is 10 mp/5, 20 ap, 240 health for 870 gold.
To get close to that with other items you would need 1 book = 20 ap, 1 ruby crystal = 180 health, and 1 meiki pendant = 7mp/5 And the cost of those items? 1295g AND the stats are lower (particularly the mp/5 and hps)

Dorans are essentially the MOST EFFICIENT way to spend your early game money. Period.
First of all, your reasoning isn't completely off but it is flawed. Dorans are hands down the most cost effective ITEMS, true, but is it the most COST EFFECTIVE way to spend your money? That is the question which hasn't been answered. The debate here isn't whether Doran's items are cost effective stat wise but rather is it better to have your cake now? Doran's items are the equivalent to having your cake now. They provide superior stats/cost ratio to other times at the time they are purchased. However, while I'm not entirely convinced, I believe that the most cost effective game is one that gives you the best bang for buck over the course of a game. This means builds that upgrade from previous purchased items will net you the greatest efficiency in the long run. That being said, I realize games are short in TT. But less gold per game is an even bigger reason to build into big ticket items. I'll address this further vs. your points, which I still contend are valid but flawed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyGin View Post
2 - if your games are lasting so long that you need all 6 slots for your uber items, chances are that the 200g you lost from selling dorans doesn't really matter. I mean, we're talking about spending 15-20,000 gold, are you really going to complain about losing 200? Further, if your games are lasting that long, you are probably doing something wrong.
This is a great point but it isn't the common denominator. No, you may not need that 200g if you are winning. But, if we assume a 50/50 ratio goal, then you will not be netting 15-20k in every game. In the games where you are gold starved because of: bad comp, bad MM, solo queue, afk, etc..., that 200g may be the difference between squeaking out a much needed Banshee's or not. You will not be swimming in gold every game. In competitive SR play you may only net 8-10k because both teams are playing well. It's the same mentality that makes max item benefit builds worthless. Each game is different and a smart player understands this concept.

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3 - Saving you from 1 skill or 2 or 3 autoattacks can often be the difference between getting first blood and being first blood.
You are right, but this isn't the only way to avoid first blood. Sometimes, simply playing defensive isn't enough and a Doran's item does provide excellent bang for immediate buck. But the difference isn't so mind blowing to negate the ability for other items to be relevant. Not choosing a Doran's item certainly isn't gong to mean you lose first blood or that you are more likely to lose first blood. To assert so is a fallacious argument called affirming the consequent.

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In short, if you're going to sit there and tower hug for the first 8 levels dorans might not be the best investment. But on games where you have to play aggressively early, they're generally hugely beneficial.
If you are sitting at a tower for 8 levels, you're doing it wrong; or at least your team is doing it wrong. You wont begin every game with the perfect lane composition. Sometimes it is best to swap lane comps for better match-ups. In relation to Doran's items and TT, having 3 members with Doran's isn't going to be an auto win early on. As has been said before, not ever champion is item dependent, especially when runes, abilities and summoner spells come into the equation. What this means is that Tower Hugging does not mean you didn't buy a Doran's.

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As mentioned by some others, they often aren't as important on some chars, Regrowth on morde for example, or I go with other items on Malphite because the HP is less important laning due to his passive. still. Dorans are the best stats / gold you can buy.
First let me address your mistake with Malphite. It is a widely accepted standard that Malphite benefits highly from HP items for early laning. Personally I prefer a regrowth item or a cloth armor+2pots but that is personal preference. Doran's is an excellent choice on ALL champions but it isn't the ONLY or even MOST effective way to itemize.

Bottom line is that it comes down to strategy. Is it worth it for YOUR play-style to have cake now or are you better suited for building quicker into that BIG item before your opposition. I assure you that there are plenty of Excellent High ELO players who will support either argument. Riot has done an excellent job with LOL and should be commended for success in the sheer fact that MANY champions have multiple viable builds. While not perfect, Play-style and Team composition/style are more important factors than whether or not you purchased a Doran's item or not.


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Joeface

Member

04-01-2010

I prefer ruby on TT. The first fight decides the tempo for the rest of the game. In that one 15 second fight hp>regen (and 10 armor isn't much).


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Whimsicali

Junior Member

04-01-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeface View Post
I prefer ruby on TT. The first fight decides the tempo for the rest of the game. In that one 15 second fight hp>regen (and 10 armor isn't much).
Yeah, I've been going Ruby as well on TT.


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GuyGin

Senior Member

04-01-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimsicali View Post
First of all, your reasoning isn't completely off but it is flawed. Dorans are hands down the most cost effective ITEMS, true, but is it the most COST EFFECTIVE way to spend your money? That is the question which hasn't been answered. The debate here isn't whether Doran's items are cost effective stat wise but rather is it better to have your cake now? Doran's items are the equivalent to having your cake now. They provide superior stats/cost ratio to other times at the time they are purchased. However, while I'm not entirely convinced, I believe that the most cost effective game is one that gives you the best bang for buck over the course of a game. This means builds that upgrade from previous purchased items will net you the greatest efficiency in the long run. That being said, I realize games are short in TT. But less gold per game is an even bigger reason to build into big ticket items. I'll address this further vs. your points, which I still contend are valid but flawed.
No. It is the most cost effective way to spend your money. It gives you the most stats per gold. Yes it is a "have your cake now versus later" but the thing is you are gimping yourself by going for your first item as say, Mejais, for that first team fight (getting a tome rather than Dorans). In that sense it is hands down the most effective way to spend your money. Also The marginal utility from upgrading an item wont be realized for roughly 3 or 4 more purchases. You have to have enough money to buy boots (in all likelihood) plus enough money to buy the other item to combo with the first gimped item you bought, and then enough to combine them. To get to your first item it will easily cost you 1700+ gold depending on what that first item is. Taking a dorans first makes it 2100 gold to that first item. But it's worth noting that you STILL have the benefit from doran's. It's not like it's some worthless item once you get some levels. 120 hps and 10 ap and 5 mp5 is still valuable no matter what level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimsicali View Post
This is a great point but it isn't the common denominator. No, you may not need that 200g if you are winning. But, if we assume a 50/50 ratio goal, then you will not be netting 15-20k in every game. In the games where you are gold starved because of: bad comp, bad MM, solo queue, afk, etc..., that 200g may be the difference between squeaking out a much needed Banshee's or not. You will not be swimming in gold every game. In competitive SR play you may only net 8-10k because both teams are playing well. It's the same mentality that makes max item benefit builds worthless. Each game is different and a smart player understands this concept.
If you are fighting an uphill losing battle, there is no way in hell you are going to fill all 6 of your item slots. That's my point. The fact that you "lose 200 gold" from selling back dorans will ONLY be an issue once you have all 5 other slots filled with items. To have them filled with decent once, it will cost you between at LEAST 10,000 and 15,000 (depending on what you go for) and then another 2-3k for the item you are replacing dorans with.

If your game is going so poorly that you really need that 200 gold advantage, sorry, but Dorans is probably the BEST item you could buy because it gives you the most benefit per gold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimsicali View Post
You are right, but this isn't the only way to avoid first blood. Sometimes, simply playing defensive isn't enough and a Doran's item does provide excellent bang for immediate buck. But the difference isn't so mind blowing to negate the ability for other items to be relevant. Not choosing a Doran's item certainly isn't gong to mean you lose first blood or that you are more likely to lose first blood. To assert so is a fallacious argument called affirming the consequent.
It isn't the only way to avoid first blood. You could, as you say, play defensively (thus my exaggeration of tower hugging until level 8. The thing is that Dorans gives you the freedom to be aggresive. But not chosing Dorans certainly DOES mean you are more likely to lose first blood, because it means the enemy only has to do 500 instead of 600 some damage for first blood. No, it's not a certainty, but whenever you go for an early game gank, you are running that risk. Doran's is hands down the best way to mitigate that risk.

The whole you should never die anyway if you play properly, thus you dont need dorans is also a logical fallacy as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimsicali View Post
First let me address your mistake with Malphite. It is a widely accepted standard that Malphite benefits highly from HP items for early laning. Personally I prefer a regrowth item or a cloth armor+2pots but that is personal preference. Doran's is an excellent choice on ALL champions but it isn't the ONLY or even MOST effective way to itemize.

Bottom line is that it comes down to strategy. Is it worth it for YOUR play-style to have cake now or are you better suited for building quicker into that BIG item before your opposition. I assure you that there are plenty of Excellent High ELO players who will support either argument. Riot has done an excellent job with LOL and should be commended for success in the sheer fact that MANY champions have multiple viable builds. While not perfect, Play-style and Team composition/style are more important factors than whether or not you purchased a Doran's item or not.
Malphite aside (I always start the build with a haunting visage items, as I find he benefits greatly from the regens and then moreso from the mpen) Doran's isnt the only choice for all champions, however it is the best choice for many champions. Many people ignore it because they want to get to their mejai's, lichbane, trinity force, or phantom dancer 475 gold faster, and that's a mistake imo.

I also don't think anyone was claiming it was even the most important decision to make. However there is no argument that it's a "waste of money" or even that it's a bad purchase. They are hands down the most stats per gold you can get (even beating out a maxed RoA IIRC) and give you the biggest early game advantage you can hope for (well ignoring battle elixir as that is a bit of a gamble.)


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Kajitii

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Senior Member

04-01-2010

Testimony to the power of Doran's.

SR map, top lane

Anivia (me) w/ Doran's Ring, HP Pot || Rammus w/ Doran's Shield, HP Pot
vs.
Anivia w/ Sapphire Crystal, HP Pot || Pantheon w/ Regrowth Pendant

We traded blows quite often, and we had low life a lot of the time, but we ended up killing the other guys. A lot. Rammus had to bp quite a few times though xD I believe the other Anivia was trying to rush Catalyst, but I ended up getting RoA sooner than she could get Catalyst.

I'd have to say the HP and the AP on Doran's Ring made quite a difference, as not only were we able to just kill them in a few instances, but the HP also saved my bacon.


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LiterallyAPanda

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Recruiter

04-01-2010

BTW you can sell them too


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Whimsicali

Junior Member

04-01-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyGin View Post
No. It is the most cost effective way to spend your money. It gives you the most stats per gold. Yes it is a "have your cake now versus later" but the thing is you are gimping yourself by going for your first item as say, Mejais, for that first team fight (getting a tome rather than Dorans). In that sense it is hands down the most effective way to spend your money. Also The marginal utility from upgrading an item wont be realized for roughly 3 or 4 more purchases. You have to have enough money to buy boots (in all likelihood) plus enough money to buy the other item to combo with the first gimped item you bought, and then enough to combine them. To get to your first item it will easily cost you 1700+ gold depending on what that first item is. Taking a dorans first makes it 2100 gold to that first item. But it's worth noting that you STILL have the benefit from doran's. It's not like it's some worthless item once you get some levels. 120 hps and 10 ap and 5 mp5 is still valuable no matter what level.
This would be fine and dandy if you didn't completely skip over the relevancy benefit of other items. for example 120 hp 10 ap 5 mp5 vs 200 mana built into a catalyst? Your also ignoring the fact that with succession builds you are buying along the way. Your approaching a known value vs a relative value. It's an argument with too many variables and thus you simply continue to throw out the variables. Is going dorans shield really that much better than a Ruby at 180hp? knowing a ruby can be built into a heart/catalyst/etc..? Your devaluing variables based upon an absolute that isn't quantifiable. Essentially your comparing two different strategies that are known to work and attempting to trump the other with an absolute that doesn't calculate the value of upgrading.



Quote:
If you are fighting an uphill losing battle, there is no way in hell you are going to fill all 6 of your item slots. That's my point. The fact that you "lose 200 gold" from selling back dorans will ONLY be an issue once you have all 5 other slots filled with items. To have them filled with decent once, it will cost you between at LEAST 10,000 and 15,000 (depending on what you go for) and then another 2-3k for the item you are replacing dorans with.
Your again ignoring the fact that if you don't sell the doran's, you must purchase the other items at full cost. If you purchase them at full cost, it isn't a 200g difference, its a full cost difference. Your approaching the argument from two different angles. Which is it? You wont sell a dorans until later or it is only a 200g set back?


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If your game is going so poorly that you really need that 200 gold advantage, sorry, but Dorans is probably the BEST item you could buy because it gives you the most benefit per gold.
It isn't a 200g advantage. Your flipping the argument again. Let's take Banshee's Veil. An item that most will agree is a Big ticket item with not so big ticket cost. 2715 gold. If you purchase a Ruby->Sap->Catalyst->cloak->Banshee.... You spent 2715 gold. If you chose a doran item first, you spent 3150 and purchased it later. With that 435, you could have begun building your next item or acquired boots for 350 and 2 hp pots. Bottom line is that Doran is a short term gain but long term setback. Yes, you do get the benefit of the doran item until you sell it and you may not sell it the entire game. However, the doran items lose character impact as the game progresses and the difference between purchasing a doran item vs. an upgradeable item further diminishes the value. A person posted a fairly well thought gold per item list and, while doran items were of good value, they were not the best gold per value. They are simply the best STARTING gold per value item. Many other items trumped the Doran gold per value and nearly all of them could be built into. This point even further diminishes the value of the doran items.



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It isn't the only way to avoid first blood. You could, as you say, play defensively (thus my exaggeration of tower hugging until level 8. The thing is that Dorans gives you the freedom to be aggresive. But not chosing Dorans certainly DOES mean you are more likely to lose first blood, because it means the enemy only has to do 500 instead of 600 some damage for first blood. No, it's not a certainty, but whenever you go for an early game gank, you are running that risk. Doran's is hands down the best way to mitigate that risk.
There you go again making a great point and then ruining it with a subjective. It isn't the best way to mitigate the risk. That isn't quantifiable via your metrics.

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The whole you should never die anyway if you play properly, thus you dont need dorans is also a logical fallacy as well.
I'd never offer that argument. I main Malphite as a tank. I am not afraid to die.



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Malphite aside (I always start the build with a haunting visage items, as I find he benefits greatly from the regens and then moreso from the mpen) Doran's isnt the only choice for all champions, however it is the best choice for many champions. Many people ignore it because they want to get to their mejai's, lichbane, trinity force, or phantom dancer 475 gold faster, and that's a mistake imo.
475g could be the difference between maximizing your Rod or not. Snowball items are great examples. Building 475 gold could be a huge difference in the cost per gold efficiency of the item.

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I also don't think anyone was claiming it was even the most important decision to make. However there is no argument that it's a "waste of money" or even that it's a bad purchase. They are hands down the most stats per gold you can get (even beating out a maxed RoA IIRC) and give you the biggest early game advantage you can hope for (well ignoring battle elixir as that is a bit of a gamble.)
I'd never say doran items are a waste. I simply don't believe the are the best item choice. It has it's pro's and con's. I simply suggest everyone to find which items work for their play style. Getting that big item first is a huge deal for many games. Dorans, for me, simply doesn't give a huge enough starting difference for me to justify putting off an item build. I will, however, acknowledge the fact that doran items are awesome. It just isn't the "best" aka "Only" way to begin your game. Remember, when you say best, you sure are saying there is only one way to play. After all, who wouldn't want to play the "BEST" way? Again, hats off to riot for putting such awesome item dilemma's into the game; cookie cutter, I think not.