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[Guide] Vayne – The Flexible Assassin

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Takeishï

Senior Member

06-15-2011

Just to add something to the sheen rush thing. At lv 10 sheen would proc WAY MORE than 40 damage.

According to the wiki database Vayne's AD at lv 10 is 82.5, so for ~1300g you get a 83 aditional burst every 2 sec. Zeal, sheen or phage? zeal would be the last part I'll buy, but phage/sheen depends on preference.
Keep in mind though that red buff's slow is more reliable at level 6-10 than phage, and add true damage DoT to your attacks.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

06-15-2011

Quote:
Takeishï:
Just to add something to the sheen rush thing. At lv 10 sheen would proc WAY MORE than 40 damage.

According to the wiki database Vayne's AD at lv 10 is 82.5, so for ~1300g you get a 83 aditional burst every 2 sec. Zeal, sheen or phage? zeal would be the last part I'll buy, but phage/sheen depends on preference.
Keep in mind though that red buff's slow is more reliable at level 6-10 than phage, and add true damage DoT to your attacks.


hmmm

I honestly don't know why I didn't use 100% of base AD...I am going to post my analysis between the two items based purely on damage dealt, and then post in the original guide

Sheen vs. Phage without Condemn

Sheen = 82.5 AD * 1.75 for Tumble = 144.38 + 0 for two auto = 144.38 in 3 attacks
Phage = 18 AD * 1.75 for Tumble = 31.5 + 36 for two auto = 67.5 in 3 attacks

Sheen wins if Condemn isn't used


Sheen vs. Phage with Condemn stun

Sheen = 144.38 in 3 attacks + 0 extra for Condemn = 144.38 total extra from Sheen
Phage = 67.5 in 3 attacks + 18 extra for Condemn = 85.5 total extra from Phage

Sheen wins even if Condemn IS used.

Conclusion
Sheen is better in all situations if you are only concerned about maximum damage from a TriForce item.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

06-15-2011

Guide Updated

I've added a new section containing the analysis between the item options for the end of the laning phase. Check it out near the end of the 3rd post.


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Kikhan

Senior Member

06-15-2011

haha told you sheen was viable, just a different playstyle. Good job on the math.

I still agree with you on playstyle the Sheen rush isn't my preference either but, certainly is a viable option against certain matchups.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

06-15-2011

Quote:
Kikhan:
haha told you sheen was viable, just a different playstyle. Good job on the math.

I still agree with you on playstyle the Sheen rush isn't my preference either but, certainly is a viable option against certain matchups.


I've been running the early game regen setup, and rushing either IE or TriForce...

After this analysis, though, I'm definitely testing out rushing Sheen for TriForce instead of Phage, since the stronger harasser wins when they have superior regen.

I don't think I've lost a single lane assignment since I finished my Hp5 Quints...It's just absurd what you can do when your innate regen is more than your opponent (WITH Soraka) can regenerate...


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Kikhan

Senior Member

06-15-2011

I'm generally a fan of the attack speed build since it is a different feel compared to the damage build I almost always do on ranged carries. Also I am looking to counter the beef on the opponents in general if I pick Vayne.

I only like regen if your looking to harrass a lot as it is not very useful during a direct engagement. Tired of all this philo stone building lately and laughing at crushing people in actual fights. It is good if you can keep up a steady level of harrassing pushing that first tower down in 10 minutes.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

06-15-2011

Quote:
Kikhan:
I'm generally a fan of the attack speed build since it is a different feel compared to the damage build I almost always do on ranged carries. Also I am looking to counter the beef on the opponents in general if I pick Vayne.


Same concept I started out on Vayne...works like a charm, but takes a while to start up in my opinion...


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Takeishï

Senior Member

06-15-2011

Thanks for the math Eledhan, but I must point out something. In your calculations sheen was multiplied by tumble, which is not the case.(it would be sooo strong)

Sheen procs an additionnal physical damage based on your original AD, this proc is reduced by armor, but cannot be modified by abilities such as Parrrrley, double up, and mystic shot.

If you look ingame, when hitting someone you will see your damages, followed by the sheen proc.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

06-16-2011

Quote:
Takeishï:
Thanks for the math Eledhan, but I must point out something. In your calculations sheen was multiplied by tumble, which is not the case.(it would be sooo strong)


No, Sheen proc is not enhanced by Tumble. However, Tumble IS enhanced by the Sheen proc.

Tumble grants 0.75 of bonus attack damage to the next auto attack, and Sheen grants bonus attack damage. So...the formula for a Tumble attack's damage from items is 1.75 * bonus AD = damage. Since Sheen grants bonus AD, it is included in the formula.

Quote:
Sheen procs an additionnal physical damage based on your original AD, this proc is reduced by armor, but cannot be modified by abilities such as Parrrrley, double up, and mystic shot.


I'm not saying that Sheen is modified by those abilities, I'm saying that Tumble is modified by the Sheen proc. In addition, comparing abilities that apply on hit affects are not the same as abilities that trigger after the next attack. You would need to compare Vayne's Tumble to something like Nasus' Siphon Strike and Jax's Empower, as those abilities enhance the NEXT attack.

I will go test this as soon as I can, but I seem to remember Phreak posting that the two effects DO STACK on each other (Sheen bonus is counted in Tumble calculation) somewhere on the forums, but I can't track it down...it's been too long, and I don't feel like sifting through hundreds of search results when I can just test it on my own.

I will run my own interior tests based on 0 Armor targets (after penetration) and see if my calculations are correct. But as of now, all the information I have points toward Tumble gaining the Sheen proc as part of it's damage calculation.

If this is not true, then BF Sword will become the best item for mid-game damage.

Quote:
If you look ingame, when hitting someone you will see your damages, followed by the sheen proc.


No you won't.

Proof of a Sheen proc not showing as a separate number over your target's head can be found in the Vayne Champion Spotlight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZDJqpFspmg) starting @ 3:00. Watch as Phreak tumbles away from Singed, triggers Sheen, and attacks. Only one damage number pops up.

You can see this in many other Sheen procs throughout the rest of the video as well.


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Takeishï

Senior Member

06-16-2011

mmm... if it works, it means the trinity force build is more powerfull than I though.
By reaserching a little, I've heared some stuff about sheen/TF: can be ehanced by tumble, sheen/TF can crit, tumble can crit. With these information, here would be the formula with TF---

{[base+(150% of base)]×1.75×2}

this formula is correct if the three statements above are true.

thoughts?