[Guide] AD/AP TF? No way!

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Charmicarmicarmicat

Senior Member

03-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyGin View Post
huh? Stacked deck gives bonus damage every 4 attacks.
So in 6 auto attacks youd be getting 1 to 2 stacked decks.
Stacked decks damage isn't insignificant at all either.


P.S. I want to see an AS / AP build for him:
SotD, Nashor's, Guinsoo's

I would also like to consider using mpen on him for some craziness. Actually I would like to see also:
Lichbane, Nashor's, Guinsoo's, SotD, Sorcerer's shoes, but you would be a glass cannon and probably get destroyed.
On average, level 5 SD adds 45 bonus dmg to your attack. 6 x 45 = 270 dmg. So in order to exceed the BURST of wildcards, an <average> of 6 auto attacks is required. That's a lot of attacks at level 9 considering how everyone has flash, cleanse, ghost, counter cc, natural escape mechanisms etc.

Not to mention the enemy kiting you, making you lose DPS.


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MEMEME670

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Senior Member

03-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charmicarmicarmicat View Post
On average, level 5 SD adds 45 bonus dmg to your attack. 6 x 45 = 270 dmg. So in order to exceed the BURST of wildcards, an <average> of 6 auto attacks is required. That's a lot of attacks at level 9 considering how everyone has flash, cleanse, ghost, counter cc, natural escape mechanisms etc.

Not to mention the enemy kiting you, making you lose DPS.
Armor/MR comes into account, along with attackspeed and damage that might not be as hard as it seems.


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Charmicarmicarmicat

Senior Member

03-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEMEME670 View Post
Armor/MR comes into account, along with attackspeed and damage that might not be as hard as it seems.
Armor/MR is almost irrelevant seeing as both WC and SD have the same source of damage - magic. After all, you can autoattack as well after you used wildcards, although at a 30% AS disadvantage.


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Dr Troll

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Senior Member

03-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charmicarmicarmicat View Post
Ofcourse I read your guide.

180 divided by 4 is 45. That means, an average of 45 magic damage added on each attack(along with 30ias and 15 cdr) that's not bad, but not good enough to warrant a full focus of the hero (imo)

But you ARE autoattacking. 100% of your damage requires you to perform an attack command, regardless of whether you have a red or a gold card over your head. So you have no way of chipping away at the enemy without exposing yourself (after all your range is lower than most range heroes, your health is mediocre and you have no innate escape mech)

At any rate, 45 damage per hit still requires almost 6 autoattacks to compete with the burst of wildcards. That might not seem like a lot to you if you play in an environment where people have trouble focusing the proper enemies and just go for whoever, but where I come from 6 auto attacks in a 5v5 is a death sentence until the fight narrows down to atleast 3v3~. Theres simply too much cc and focus fire flying around. Not to mention, wildcards can hit multiple enemies. Often though, the first 1-2 kills decide the outcome of the teamfight, therefore I find it better to be able to dish out some burst from safety.

I'd rather take a sheen, throw a goldcard+wildcard+autoattack burst combo for 600 damage rather than having to redcard+4 autoattacks to achieve the same damage. You may do more dmg over time (sustained DPS) but it also exposes you.

A good hybrid build to me should include trinity force. It has the jack of all trades, adding to both your survivability (hp and movespeed) as well as DPS (AP, dmg, AS) but the most important part is the 130% base dmg on your next attack. This is a great boost to your pick a card skill. Madreds is very good against tanks, dragon and baron so that's a solid item as well.


Whoa, whoa, you're wayyyy off damage wise. That additional damage is on top of a huge amount coming from other sources. 4% of their max health from Madred's is a crapload of added damage; if someone has 1500 hp, it's doing an extra 60 dmg a hit. On a tank, it's 120 per hit. Average attack damage with just those items, which are relatively easy to get, is about 130 at around 2.2-2.3 AS. Add in 20 armor pen and an additional 100 magic damage every fourth hit from SotD. If your AS is about 2.5, and you GC someone for a 2 second stun, the initial hit will do roughly 550 damage before armor and MR, with a -20 Armor pen. You will hit them minimum four more times, but usually five more, before they budge one inch. three more hits at regular damage, which is 220 damage, then another proc of SotD and SD for about 510, then one more hit at 220. That's almost 2000 damage (not factoring in their armor and MR, also not factoring in the -20 armor from SotD) before they move at all. Are you going to tell me cards come remotely close to that kind of burst? No way. You also greatly underestimate the harass of a stacked SD+red card.


You're basically saying that WC is superior in a situation where there's a 3v3-5v5 skirmishing, and you're trying to plink away some health, say from someone camping a turret. First, WC is easy as hell to dodge, second, you completely contradict yourself by saying you want WC build so you aren't exposed, but then saying you'd GC+WC+auto attack combo. You have to be at close range to do that, and there is no possible way that would do anywhere near the damage of what I stated above, not to mention when they come out of stun alive, you'll just stand there looking dumb and auto attacking for 50 damage. But yes, in the situation where you're hiding behind your entire team and neither team will initiate, WC is superior at being annoying.

TF has poor AP ratios and poor AD since half his damage comes from magic as well. It makes no sense to try and focus on making all of his mediocre stats somewhat passable. yeah, you might get out a whopping 400 damage WC if you manage to get 200 AP on top of your trinity force. So maybe a mejai's, boots, trinity force, and then another AP item if you can build the stacks. Yeah, or you could just get boots, SotD, Madred's, and do way, way more damage. When you gate in to gank someone with this build, they are not getting away unless something goes horribly wrong. In team fights you will go in with your team and rape just like any other carry would, except better because you have a short CD stun/aoe slow.


I actually had this situation happen earlier, where I laned against an AP TF. Neither of us killed one another and it was mostly a stalemate; I spammed SD stacks+red card, he spammed WC+red card, the results were about the same. Later in the game, we had a natural push on top, so I gated in to push it in. he then gated behind me directly after. He had a trin/ap build, I had my SotD/madred's. he got his GC off first, WC'd me, then auto attacked me, taking about half my hp. I then GC'd him and he was dead before the stun wore off.

LoL isn't a game of 1v1s, but I think it makes a point


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Dr Troll

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Senior Member

03-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charmicarmicarmicat View Post
On average, level 5 SD adds 45 bonus dmg to your attack. 6 x 45 = 270 dmg. So in order to exceed the BURST of wildcards, an <average> of 6 auto attacks is required. That's a lot of attacks at level 9 considering how everyone has flash, cleanse, ghost, counter cc, natural escape mechanisms etc.

Not to mention the enemy kiting you, making you lose DPS.

You're way off too. Read my big long last post for reasons why. Briefly, if you smack someone with a GC+stacks, you're going to be doing a large amount of damage. You guys talk like GC+5 attacks is a lot when someone is stunned, when really it's the duration of one gold card.


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Dr Troll

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03-23-2010

Last thing I want to say is, if you're going to play TF like a caster, why bother? Why not just play another champion that has far better ratios and AP burst damage?


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Charmicarmicarmicat

Senior Member

03-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Troll View Post
Whoa, whoa, you're wayyyy off damage wise. That additional damage is on top of a huge amount coming from other sources. 4% of their max health from Madred's is a crapload of added damage; if someone has 1500 hp, it's doing an extra 60 dmg a hit. On a tank, it's 120 per hit. Average attack damage with just those items, which are relatively easy to get, is about 130 at around 2.2-2.3 AS. Add in 20 armor pen and an additional 100 magic damage every fourth hit from SotD. If your AS is about 2.5, and you GC someone for a 2 second stun, the initial hit will do roughly 550 damage before armor and MR, with a -20 Armor pen. You will hit them minimum four more times, but usually five more, before they budge one inch. three more hits at regular damage, which is 220 damage, then another proc of SotD and SD for about 510, then one more hit at 220. That's almost 2000 damage (not factoring in their armor and MR, also not factoring in the -20 armor from SotD) before they move at all. Are you going to tell me cards come remotely close to that kind of burst? No way. You also greatly underestimate the harass of a stacked SD+red card.
The game doesn't start at level 15+, which is probably the level you are by the time you acquire madreds and SOTD. I like to consider all aspects of the game, such as being able to chip away an enemies health during level 6-8 teamfights without getting bursted down.

Besides, my numbers were just examples. The point was that the immediate burst from using TF/LB is higher than your build. Relatively speaking, burst>sustained.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Troll View Post
You're basically saying that WC is superior in a situation where there's a 3v3-5v5 skirmishing, and you're trying to plink away some health, say from someone camping a turret. First, WC is easy as hell to dodge, second, you completely contradict yourself by saying you want WC build so you aren't exposed, but then saying you'd GC+WC+auto attack combo. You have to be at close range to do that, and there is no possible way that would do anywhere near the damage of what I stated above, not to mention when they come out of stun alive, you'll just stand there looking dumb and auto attacking for 50 damage. But yes, in the situation where you're hiding behind your entire team and neither team will initiate, WC is superior at being annoying.
Actually i'm more concerned about teamfights than the laning stage. Where I play, that part ends around the time people get their ultimates. If someone is camping at a turret, thats a bigger chance that wildcards will hit them than your autoattack. Surely you must agree on that. But yes, I am saying that in 5v5 situations wildcard is superior in nature to SD. The exception would be that your team is very dominant in CC, actually allowing you to autoattack for extended periods of time during a teamfight. But in that case, if you're out-CC'ing that badly, chances are you're already winning.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Troll View Post
TF has poor AP ratios and poor AD since half his damage comes from magic as well. It makes no sense to try and focus on making all of his mediocre stats somewhat passable. yeah, you might get out a whopping 400 damage WC if you manage to get 200 AP on top of your trinity force. So maybe a mejai's, boots, trinity force, and then another AP item if you can build the stacks. Yeah, or you could just get boots, SotD, Madred's, and do way, way more damage. When you gate in to gank someone with this build, they are not getting away unless something goes horribly wrong. In team fights you will go in with your team and rape just like any other carry would, except better because you have a short CD stun/aoe slow.
Yeah his AP ratios aren't super. But I wouldn't make AP if I was going for trinity force, only if I was going for Lich Bane. The sole reason is ofcourse that a very large chunk of AP TF's damage comes from Lich Bane proc, not the ratios of his skills (though they definitely help!)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Troll View Post
I actually had this situation happen earlier, where I laned against an AP TF. Neither of us killed one another and it was mostly a stalemate; I spammed SD stacks+red card, he spammed WC+red card, the results were about the same. Later in the game, we had a natural push on top, so I gated in to push it in. he then gated behind me directly after. He had a trin/ap build, I had my SotD/madred's. he got his GC off first, WC'd me, then auto attacked me, taking about half my hp. I then GC'd him and he was dead before the stun wore off.
That TF should have known that he couldn't take you out 1on1, but had to resort to hit-and run tactics. Theres no shame in that if thats the path you have taken.

But you said it yourself, this game isn't a 1on1, so I don't think the point made any impact on me.


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Charmicarmicarmicat

Senior Member

03-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Troll View Post
Last thing I want to say is, if you're going to play TF like a caster, why bother? Why not just play another champion that has far better ratios and AP burst damage?
How is this arguement NOT applicable to playing him your way? There are far better heroes in terms of raw DPS.


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GuyGin

Senior Member

03-23-2010

I think you underestimate the fact that SD can be used for burst. Sure you have to get close, but SD + PaC is going to give you as good or greater burst as long as you make sure your SD goes off on the PaC attack. If you get a SotD too (can be gotten fairly early) that burst is even higher.


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Charmicarmicarmicat

Senior Member

03-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Troll View Post
You're way off too. Read my big long last post for reasons why. Briefly, if you smack someone with a GC+stacks, you're going to be doing a large amount of damage. You guys talk like GC+5 attacks is a lot when someone is stunned, when really it's the duration of one gold card.
The maximum number of attacks you can get is 3, and that's with 2.5 attacks a second(very lategame) since mercury treads (which everyone has) lowers the duration to 1.2 seconds. On top of that, you're exposing yourself to cc.

Every second you have to run, kite or reposition yourself you are losing DPS, while the burst oriented build can easily lay his DPS down in a quick flurry, then kite, run or reposition himself without losing too much DPS.


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