[Guide] AD/AP TF? No way!

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Lucchinii

Senior Member

03-23-2010

One thing I don't agree with this guide is not getting WC early and, and getting cloth armor and 3 hp pots.

Mainly because I've yet to see any TF that gets something like that do well till mid-late game.

I love getting Bloodrazor as my second/third item.
SotD first if the other team has a lot of exhaust spells, or a Jax or someone that can blind.


I agree completely in getting AS runes. The way I see it, you're doing it wrong if you don't get AS runes as a TF.

Like you, I like getting on-hit effect items as well.

Early game I farm for a Malady, which gives me more DPS and enough lifesteal to heal most of my hp by simply autoattacking. I don't have to worry much about last hitting as I would already have crazy AS and DMG with SD's 4th hit and a Malady.

After that, I get Swift Boots as most on-hit effect items I get add AS, so I can get 2.5 easily.

Then I work up for my bloodrazor, getting a madred razor first if I'm having some problems farming/killing champs, or a recurve bow first if the enemy is pushing me badly so I can deal more DPS while getting my hp back up fast from the Malady.

After that, I pretty much get the other items you get.



But yeah, really nice guide. +1~


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Dr Troll

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Senior Member

03-23-2010

Thanks for the comments, feedback is appreciated. I think life steal and malady and all that is a fine build, but the whole reason I go madred's first is so I can farm golem and lizard very fast at low levels, getting my cdr going and letting me destiny gank people a lot faster. I have tried rushing SotD, and while it does work, it slows down your ability to fly all over the map. I ended up feeling slower with a malady, and slower with an SotD first.

I think the difference is playstyle though, as I never stick around long unless it's a full blown teamfight until mid-late game. My routine is to pretty much destiny gank, port back, head to mid, get golem/lizard, farm until my destiny is up and I'm off again. I do this until the game turns into five mans. Playing this way, I never have a big use for life steal as I'm usually never sticking around for involved fights. By not taking WC, I'm more capable of killing someone during the ganks.


I think the thing is that TF allows for a whole ton of playstyles, and if you play him more as a strait carry early on, then life steal is probably the way to go. I guess I kind of play him like a stealth roamer early on, then switch to a regular carry late game.


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Lucchinii

Senior Member

03-23-2010

Mm, I see.
I kind of like being a carry.

I'm usually the first person to destroy a turret.
I actually don't use destiny to gank that much. I really only use it to either get back to a turret fast, or to BD the other team's turret.


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Dr Troll

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Senior Member

03-23-2010

Yeah, for me I'm ganking asap. Usually I'll wait for a 2v2 skirmish in a lane, port in real fast and clean up, then push the turret. Sometimes we get it, sometimes I just bail, then go back to doing what I was doing. It's definitely riskier, as a failed gank can slow you and even get you killed, but that's the way I play him. Later on I'll play a more standard role.


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Jimmyjames

Member

03-23-2010

yeah i think TF is supposed to be a ganker. But I personally got for the AS/AD route. That just because finding a game where i get to Mid is almost non existant


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Charmicarmicarmicat

Senior Member

03-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Troll View Post
What do you mean? He's useful in a teamfight the same way any carry is; stay behind the tanks and melt everyone. I think you're underestimating how insanely fast TF kills people with this gear setup. I have no idea where you're getting 45 damage from SD, as it adds 180 damage per fourth hit, and the CD reduction is also extremely valuable.

This isn't an AD build at all, did you actually read the guide? You aren't just auto attacking in fights, you're busting out AOE slows with red card or single target stuns with gold card and proceeding to kill anyone you focus, including tanks (due to madred's). I don't see how this isn't obvious. His survivability is better than a lot of other carries if you follow this guide and know how to use his abilities correctly.


I just don't see how wildcards are useful at all in a team fight on dps build. They'll add a pitiful amount of damage, and if you're trying to play TF as an AP caster/harasser then there's REALLY something to be desired. They're marginally safer early game, but that does not justify how badly they start to mid-late. I've played against quite a few TF's who go AP and focus on cards, it isn't hard to deal with and none of them have stood out at all.

I also explain how I harass early game in safety.

I feel like maybe you clicked this, saw that I eschew Wild Cards, and then posted a reply without reading the rest of the guide.
Ofcourse I read your guide.

180 divided by 4 is 45. That means, an average of 45 magic damage added on each attack(along with 30ias and 15 cdr) that's not bad, but not good enough to warrant a full focus of the hero (imo)

But you ARE autoattacking. 100% of your damage requires you to perform an attack command, regardless of whether you have a red or a gold card over your head. So you have no way of chipping away at the enemy without exposing yourself (after all your range is lower than most range heroes, your health is mediocre and you have no innate escape mech)

At any rate, 45 damage per hit still requires almost 6 autoattacks to compete with the burst of wildcards. That might not seem like a lot to you if you play in an environment where people have trouble focusing the proper enemies and just go for whoever, but where I come from 6 auto attacks in a 5v5 is a death sentence until the fight narrows down to atleast 3v3~. Theres simply too much cc and focus fire flying around. Not to mention, wildcards can hit multiple enemies. Often though, the first 1-2 kills decide the outcome of the teamfight, therefore I find it better to be able to dish out some burst from safety.

I'd rather take a sheen, throw a goldcard+wildcard+autoattack burst combo for 600 damage rather than having to redcard+4 autoattacks to achieve the same damage. You may do more dmg over time (sustained DPS) but it also exposes you.

A good hybrid build to me should include trinity force. It has the jack of all trades, adding to both your survivability (hp and movespeed) as well as DPS (AP, dmg, AS) but the most important part is the 130% base dmg on your next attack. This is a great boost to your pick a card skill. Madreds is very good against tanks, dragon and baron so that's a solid item as well.


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MrCarrier

Junior Member

03-23-2010

TF takes a bit of finesse to play. Its not just auto attacking. Wild Card eats WAY too much many for its crappy damage. Its great to throw it in there on a Destiny gank, but hardly worth focusing on.

Plus, his AP ratio is complete ****. But when you stack AS/AD you get the full benefit (minus armor mitigation of course).


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Charmicarmicarmicat

Senior Member

03-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Troll View Post
I honestly think you need to try this kind of build before saying that. I think you're thinking of a TF that stacks AD/AS, and that I'm trying to say that it will out dps a fed Twitch or Trist. Your damage comes from a combination of physical dps, magic damage, and item hit effects. I guarantee you will be more than happy with his ability to kill anyone if you try this method, as Madred's alone with 2.5 AS will melt through a tank very fast.

The reason to pick TF is that he can be anywhere at any time, ganking anyone, doing huge amounts of damage, with a super reliable stun and aoe slow. He's both a team fighting carry and a map roaming ganker at once. He also has pretty crazy scouting abilities.
I did about 10 games of attack oriented TF, and trying different things like AS (SOTD and Rageblade) to AD (using red cards) with black cleaver and IE to a more hybrid oriented using Trinity Force and Nashors Tooth (I wasn't on my main so i had no CDR).

They all worked excellent since I was playing on my smurf against unorganised enemies.

But as soon as I went back to my main, after 4-5 games I realised that not picking wildcards made me feel gimped, and so did not picking sheen/triforce/lichbane. Trying to autoattack my way to glory was sure to get me killed until they were weakened enough(despite using both flash and ghost) so I had another 10 games alternating between hybrid (tri force, rageblade, possibly madreds) and full blown AP (mejai, RoA, Lichbane, Zhonya) and started to perform much more stabile. Common for both was leveling wildcards first, with the hybrid getting level 1-2 PaC before leveling SD while the AP path went to lvl 3-4 PaC before SD.

While going a lichbane AP build (basically the old cookie cutter build) might feel like playing a gimped version of the old TF, it's worth noting that gold cards last longer and are more reliable to pick at will. Your damage output is still around 75-80% of your former self (which, everyone agreed was over the top) especially if you land a goldcard with a Stacked Deck proc as well as 300+ AP and Lich Bane.


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Charmicarmicarmicat

Senior Member

03-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCarrier View Post
TF takes a bit of finesse to play. Its not just auto attacking. Wild Card eats WAY too much many for its crappy damage. Its great to throw it in there on a Destiny gank, but hardly worth focusing on.

Plus, his AP ratio is complete ****. But when you stack AS/AD you get the full benefit (minus armor mitigation of course).
260 damage definitely isn't crappy early on. It's the equivalent of the bonus damage from 6 autoattacks with stacked deck at max level. That's a lot of autoattacks when counting flash, cleanse, ghost, counter-cc and so on.


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GuyGin

Senior Member

03-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charmicarmicarmicat View Post
260 damage definitely isn't crappy early on. It's the equivalent of the bonus damage from 6 autoattacks with stacked deck at max level. That's a lot of autoattacks when counting flash, cleanse, ghost, counter-cc and so on.
huh? Stacked deck gives bonus damage every 4 attacks.
So in 6 auto attacks youd be getting 1 to 2 stacked decks.
Stacked decks damage isn't insignificant at all either.


P.S. I want to see an AS / AP build for him:
SotD, Nashor's, Guinsoo's

I would also like to consider using mpen on him for some craziness. Actually I would like to see also:
Lichbane, Nashor's, Guinsoo's, SotD, Sorcerer's shoes, but you would be a glass cannon and probably get destroyed.


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