How to not play katarina

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biomorph

Senior Member

05-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frolossus View Post
strong nukes mean **** if you take more damage then the other guy
In which case it's the player who is at fault not the nuke ... Tautological but it seems you are insinuating that it is the other way round.


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TL Frolo

Senior Member

05-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by biomorph View Post
In which case it's the player who is at fault not the nuke ... Tautological but it seems you are insinuating that it is the other way round.
lolno
you shunpo to them, that means that they can freely beat the **** out of you with minions until your walk back to your side


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biomorph

Senior Member

05-30-2011

Yes yes you do not shunpo just because you can, that we can agree on indeed.

But take kat vs cho solo lane as a classic example (at least in my case it is a classic). You poke cho and then he needs to respond or retreat, when he tries to respond you dodge his spike and/or scream with shunpo and nuke him in return and strut back into position. You never shunpo in his face while his abilities are off cool down because then you are in a world of trouble.

Clearly you dont shunpo right into someones face at level 1. You need to do the math of: your HP, enemy HP, cool downs auto attack damage and creep position/damage etc.

Take Ashe mid as an example if she wants to shoot back after eating a blade you just shunpo right back at her (only when she gets close enough to your caster minions) tearing of a huge chunk of her negligible amount of HP. Shunpo also works as a great deterrent for the same reason.

In team fights, with enough AP it is a frekin awesome nuke to soften up your targets for Lotus and/or a finisher for stragglers. This is where you can abuse shunpo + passive and dish out massive damage.
It's the suggestion that it's "only" a means of transportation which got me a bit fired up and got me ranting because I find it to be a bogus claim and false.


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Rav Abaddon

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Senior Member

05-30-2011

Bouncing Blades bounces. It's a chain attack. It harasses and farms.
Shunpo is an initiation or an escape. It's a **** good initiation, and a decent escape (Provided there's something to escape TO.)
Killer Instincts... It's a good thing to have points in, but it's not the staple of Kat's arsenal.
Her Death Lotus is a kill button. Provided they don't get away.
Played where Shunpo is a nuke to hit someone with, and back away, you're already within the scope of a gank anyway. So the safest option, ironically enough, is both in moderation. Bouncing Blades is not a spam weapon, since people start rushing you when you use it once, and thus, is best used as farming (which pushes lanes). Shunpo is no good alone because it forces you and an enemy into confrontation, and when used overmuch, wears you down.
Sound good?


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TL Frolo

Senior Member

05-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by biomorph View Post
Yes yes you do not shunpo just because you can, that we can agree on indeed.

But take kat vs cho solo lane as a classic example (at least in my case it is a classic). You poke cho and then he needs to respond or retreat, when he tries to respond you dodge his spike and/or scream with shunpo and nuke him in return and strut back into position. You never shunpo in his face while his abilities are off cool down because then you are in a world of trouble.

Clearly you dont shunpo right into someones face at level 1. You need to do the math of: your HP, enemy HP, cool downs auto attack damage and creep position/damage etc.

Take Ashe mid as an example if she wants to shoot back after eating a blade you just shunpo right back at her (only when she gets close enough to your caster minions) tearing of a huge chunk of her negligible amount of HP. Shunpo also works as a great deterrent for the same reason.

In team fights, with enough AP it is a frekin awesome nuke to soften up your targets for Lotus and/or a finisher for stragglers. This is where you can abuse shunpo + passive and dish out massive damage.
It's the suggestion that it's "only" a means of transportation which got me a bit fired up and got me ranting because I find it to be a bogus claim and false.
vs cho, if he is smart he realizes after the first attempted shunpo to wait for you to do it then rupture/silence
vs ashe she can frost arrow you all day and hit you with a volley somewhere in there,


you never use shunpo offensively, you should also never initiate with kat
always wait for your tank to do something before going into the fight


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biomorph

Senior Member

05-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frolossus View Post
vs cho, if he is smart he realizes after the first attempted shunpo to wait for you to do it then rupture/silence
The point is that you have him at a disadvantage. He will eat bouncing blades all day and sometimes with a heal debuff gimping his heal and if he wishes to heal up with passive he will be forced to push. If he wants to fight back you can counter. That is the point. If you know how/when to use your shunpo you will always have the upper hand against cho early game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frolossus View Post
vs ashe she can frost arrow you all day and hit you with a volley somewhere in there,
You use two abilities to cut a huge chunk of HP of Ashe and again you don't do this when she is far behind minions with a volley off cool down. Remember we are talking early game where your abilities do decent damage as opposed to Ashes virtual zero damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frolossus View Post
you never use shunpo offensively,
Incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frolossus View Post
you should never initiate team fights with kat
Correct (edited for inappropriate corollary usage).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frolossus View Post
always wait for your tank to do something before going into the fight
Not always, if you have it figured out then shunpo in and take off a god chunk of HP, if not kill then lotus for kill and now you shunpo out. I've seen and done it so many times and this is how you can measure experienced kat players versus inexperienced. If all you know how to do is to jump into team fights and lotus then you have still much work ahead of you in order to master Katarina.
But generally as for team fights then initiating with Kat is indeed a bad idea.


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TL Frolo

Senior Member

05-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by biomorph View Post
The point is that you have him at a disadvantage. He will eat bouncing blades all day and sometimes with a heal debuff gimping his heal and if he wishes to heal up with passive he will be forced to push. If he wants to fight back you can counter. That is the point. If you know how/when to use your shunpo you will always have the upper hand against cho early game.


You use two abilities to cut a huge chunk of HP of Ashe and again you don't do this when she is far behind minions with a volley off cool down. Remember we are talking early game where your abilities do decent damage as opposed to Ashes virtual zero damage.


Incorrect.


Correct (edited for inappropriate corollary usage).


Not always, if you have it figured out then shunpo in and take off a god chunk of HP, if not kill then lotus for kill and now you shunpo out. I've seen and done it so many times and this is how you can measure experienced kat players versus inexperienced. If all you know how to do is to jump into team fights and lotus then you have still much work ahead of you in order to master Katarina.
But generally as for team fights then initiating with Kat is indeed a bad idea.
ashe will do more damage by simply auto attacking you after your shunpo then you to her

shunpo = voracity for team fights but only after your first kill, before the first kill all it does is function as a positioning/escape mechanism


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biomorph

Senior Member

05-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frolossus View Post
ashe will do more damage by simply auto attacking you after your shunpo then you to her
A typical, say, level 4 encounter of this type is when you have one point in W, one and two points in Q and E respectively depending on mood.
Often I do the following:
#1 throw a BB at her
#2 activate W
#3 shunpo on her and
#4 one auto attack.

There are a couple of effects in play of interest. You have dealth significant damage, easily removed 50% of her MAX HP, you take reduced damage when W is used in conjunction with E, you have a passive that boosts your auto attack so for that matter she can stand there and exchange auto attacks if that is what she wants, she will loose in the long run. Ashe attack damage is laughable at level 4 and it is reduced even so which means that even if I choose to run back she looses far more health than I do. This is a typical scenario, not just wild speculation. The best part is that now Ashe knows that if she eats a combo like that again she is likely dead and she can't pull a stunt to counter it other than to stay ranged and dodge you which in turn means that you can gain lane control.

A typical Ashe reflex is of course to flash out when I do it, but even so I do it to get the HP advantage. Every time she wants to last hit she takes a risk of eating a combo like that again and I do not hesitate doing so with a Ignite + Flash as backup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frolossus View Post
shunpo = voracity for team fights but only after your first kill,
Or assist ... Which is why her passive is so brilliant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frolossus View Post
before the first kill all it does is function as a positioning/escape mechanism
Or you jump onto, say, Ashe and take out a huge chunk of her HP either for a kill, soften her up good for a lotus or someone else to kill, in other words, a nuke and a darn notable one.

Not using shunpo as a nuke either because of principle or lack of skill is a barrier one needs to overcome to get the most out of Katarina.


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Eviant

Senior Member

05-30-2011

I find that Q>E>Q>W>Q>R works best. It gives me a great tool to control the lane, how I choose, even when they are pushing hard. It brings more AoE presence in team fights, and can net you as many kills as shunpo. As for Shunpo, it's on a fairly short CD even at rank one, so use it as you please. Just remember, it is utility as well, sometimes even your lifeline. How you choose to use it is up to you.

Just make sure, that if you are going to use it, you are doing one of three things.
1) Jumping on their face, using BB and moving back to your side (Watch the minions when you do this)
2) Going for a Kill
Or 3) Escaping.


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TL Frolo

Senior Member

05-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by biomorph View Post
A typical, say, level 4 encounter of this type is when you have one point in W, one and two points in Q and E respectively depending on mood.
Often I do the following:
#1 throw a BB at her
#2 activate W
#3 shunpo on her and
#4 one auto attack.

There are a couple of effects in play of interest. You have dealth significant damage, easily removed 50% of her MAX HP, you take reduced damage when W is used in conjunction with E, you have a passive that boosts your auto attack so for that matter she can stand there and exchange auto attacks if that is what she wants, she will loose in the long run. Ashe attack damage is laughable at level 4 and it is reduced even so which means that even if I choose to run back she looses far more health than I do. This is a typical scenario, not just wild speculation. The best part is that now Ashe knows that if she eats a combo like that again she is likely dead and she can't pull a stunt to counter it other than to stay ranged and dodge you which in turn means that you can gain lane control.

A typical Ashe reflex is of course to flash out when I do it, but even so I do it to get the HP advantage. Every time she wants to last hit she takes a risk of eating a combo like that again and I do not hesitate doing so with a Ignite + Flash as backup.


Or assist ... Which is why her passive is so brilliant.


Or you jump onto, say, Ashe and take out a huge chunk of her HP either for a kill, soften her up good for a lotus or someone else to kill, in other words, a nuke and a darn notable one.

Not using shunpo as a nuke either because of principle or lack of skill is a barrier one needs to overcome to get the most out of Katarina.
dying/losing lane gives you less then chipping away and zoning


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