Vayne vs Kog'maw % health damage

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Blackmorgrim

Member

05-10-2011

yes do remember, kog's is active for 6 seconds, with a 12 sec cd. (with no CDR) At level one, he can hit with it at most 5 times, doing only 2% max health as bonus damage.

Vayne's is a passive. And that ability to escape and chase is huge.

Though Kog is far better in team fights. Vayne is strong against solo targets, especially junglers.


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Enjuine

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Senior Member

05-10-2011

Ah, someone beat me to it - but yes, Kog's is only active sometimes, whereas Vaynes' is active all the time. Also, Kog's costs mana to use. Vayne also gets a flat buff in addition to the % damage.

Anyway, the issue isn't really that it is so much better or worse than an ability on an underpowered character. It is that it just isn't something that should be in the game. % True shouldn't exist. In theory, dodge, AS reduction items, and help mitigate it, but in practice, there are no decent dodge items, she has abilities to reset the autoattack timer, and only Mundo regens that fast. There isn't a counter.

It's more a matter of principle than of power.


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DeadREDhead

Senior Member

05-10-2011

its funny people crying about vayne, have really no idea what they are talking about.

and kog > vayne.


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HotHit

Senior Member

05-10-2011

Ok, a lot of people didn't quite notice something important. What I said about their kits is relatively true. Kog has higher damage and is usually much safer, Vayne has more "escape" skills. If Vayne wants to stun an opponent, she has to run up very close to position her Condemn, since very few targets will have their back to a wall when fighting you, meaning I personally believe Kog'maw to be more effective.

Vayne may be great at chasing, but like any other assassin she has to be out of position to get the most out of her abilities. Her bolts might be a passive effect, but BAB lets Kog'maw switch target and in a teamfight is usually over before BAB expires. When harrassing in a lane the bolts require you to focus a target, just stand still while I auto-attack you 3 times Ashe. When ganking, their is still not enough time to have BAB expire. Sure, Kog ends up with it on cooldown, but when played right that isn't a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalahn View Post
The problem is assuming both champions have the same attack speed. However, Kog has a passive 30% attack speed boost, so even with the same items and ignoring base attack speeds, Kog has the advantage on his rate of fire.
Vayne can reset her attack timer and her abilities also apply Silver Bolts. At lower levels, Vayne will be attacking faster.


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Spencer

Senior Member

05-17-2011

I do like where this is headed. I hate arguments based on intuition. That said, I would like to shift the argument slightly.

For Koggy, BaB augments his auto-attacks (aa). Vayne's only augments her final attack.
You are approaching this as
Koggy: 6% (not including his aa damage) *17
Vayne: 0 damage aa, 0 damage aa, 8% true damage (not including her aa {is it true + aa anyway?})

This is slightly dishonest as those 2 aa do damage as well. A more interesting case would be to test how much her aa q+aa TS do vs 3 of kogs (or even better rate it by damage per second over say 5 seconds). In fact, using q and sheen, they do a ton of damage. I have seen Vayne almost able to entirely kill a squishy with only 3 shots (aa+q+sheen/ts/aa). I assure you. I have never seen Koggy kill anyone in 3 hits.

Further, while I like that you are trying to be fair by not counting builds. That said, over say 10 seconds a sheen benefits Vayne significantly more than Kog.

Finally, it is the whole kit that matters. For just killing, Vayne has the better kit. This is of course opinion, but I'd be happy to try to more empirically back it up.

After all of that, I don't particularly find Vayne to be OP due to her true damage. In fact, in the end game she brings almost nothing to the table but damage and is fairly easy to shut out (I've been playing Kass lately... and he entirely stops her desperate escape from my team). Stuns, silences, exhaust all hurt her pretty badly when she tries to dart in. She can't be left alone.

The only thing I think needs curtailing (slightly) is her early laning. It is pretty good... and by pretty good I mean one of the best in the game. She is almost risk free able to force most solo lanes back from the xp with hardly any effort. Her q+aa hurts like hell.


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GoldanSilver

Senior Member

05-17-2011

People, vaynes W procs extra 23,3 true damage evry hit. And hits 2,66% of max health, meaning that her damage is quite a bit higher than one might expect. With simple math we can tell that at about 120 mr, her will do more damage ignoring the fact that she is hitting 23,3 true every hit on top of that.
Then there are outside factors like her ult and her Q increasing W damage and her E resetting attack and Q doing so as well. The argument could go on forever.

The way it is "Balanced" is the fact that koggy has to build 3 as items and a void staff before any other item to do the damage she does vs tanks and squishys. And even then his is on a cool down. The 750 range is the only reason they even slightly compete.


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RevRevRev

Senior Member

05-17-2011

Does everyone just ignore the additional 70 true damage that Silver Bullets does, on top of that 8%?


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