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Rock it out with Lady Gragas

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Grimjack

Senior Member

02-28-2010

Quote:
Mr Tibbers:
Trust me kid, I did. And I'd have to agree with Raygr. Your tank doesn't seem to provide too much of anything, and nearly all of your last 10 games were losses, especially with Gragas. Your 2-10-5 and your 0-11-4 games don't help me to believe you much either. ESPECIALLY with those tanks item. You don't even have an appropriate number of assists to offset your feeder-like numbers. Believe what you will, but I'm standing by Joey's side and shaking my head at yours. :/


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Since the last patch, practically every game i play I am stuck with 2 or more low level players that queued together.

There isnt anything I can do about what those numbers look like with the team that the MM has given me.

You get a 15, 7, 9 and two level 30 verses 30,30,30,30,29 and your numbers will look the same.


Perhaps calling me kid, when my speech is clearly more articulate than yours, makes you believe that your argument is better validated. For the record, I'm 41...I would be suprised if your father was older than me.

The real flaw in your argument, beside the fact that you aren't a Gragas player yourself of very many games, is that you are blindly sticking by your friend instead of objectively addressing Gragas and his build.

You have not justified how with 400ap (which is good for Gragas seeing as he buys 2 CD items) that he is producing 580 damage barrel every 5 sec and nothing else but an ultimate every 36 sec.

This particular build cant tank and cant melee because of lack of defense for more than a few hits. That means no snaring or at best infrequently and a group contribution of under 100 dps and the 36 sec ultimate.

That is downright piss-poor performance, even from Gragas.


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Grimjack

Senior Member

02-28-2010

Quote:
incrediblyjoey:
I don't know where you got the idea that I even mentioned soloing carries. The most I ever said this build could take one on one is a squishie or a semi squishie. If soloing one of the aforementioned characters is the case, then body slam does count as a THIRD nuke. 3 because there should be no reservations about casting your ult to knock them away from their escape route.


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I didnt say anything about you soloing carries,your friend said that, because you cant with this build.

What I said was if you dared to go into melee range to use body slam or to autoattack, a carry would rip you appart. More than one carry near max level and you would be dead in under 3 seconds with this build in melee range. It doesnt matter if you are attacking them or not.


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incrediblyjoey

Junior Member

02-28-2010

As a rule of common sense, a caster should never charge into 1 or more carries. I feel as though this is obvious, and was not implied by Tibber's comment about handling melee. Looking back at the posts to see if there was a clarification issue, I noticed that Tibber's reply about melee is a "what to do if you come into contact with a melee", rather than a "this is how you kill in melee combat".

As for your comment about dealing with team mates that are under par; you aren't the only one suffering. The same thing has been happening to a number of players I know, including me. Even with these overwhelming odds, I have been able to pull out decent ratios almost every game with this build. Whether or not we win is completely different.

Go ahead and look at my profile and see.


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02-28-2010

Quote:
Grimjack:
.
Since the last patch, practically every game i play I am stuck with 2 or more low level players that queued together.

There isnt anything I can do about what those numbers look like with the team that the MM has given me.

You get a 15, 7, 9 and two level 30 verses 30,30,30,30,29 and your numbers will look the same.

Perhaps calling me kid, when my speech is clearly more articulate than yours, makes you believe that your argument is better validated. For the record, I'm 41...I would be suprised if your father was older than me.

The real flaw in your argument, beside the fact that you aren't a Gragas player yourself of very many games, is that you are blindly sticking by your friend instead of objectively addressing Gragas and his build.

You have not justified how with 400ap (which is good for Gragas seeing as he buys 2 CD items) that he is producing 580 damage barrel every 5 sec and nothing else but an ultimate every 36 sec.

This particular build cant tank and cant melee because of lack of defense for more than a few hits. That means no snaring or at best infrequently and a group contribution of under 100 dps and the 36 sec ultimate.

That is downright piss-poor performance, even from Gragas.


Sorry, I just call everyone kid. I need to work on that. :/ And you're right, you're older than my dad. He's only 36. o.o

Alright, lemme step back a bit and try to cool off.

1) Yeah, I know. MM has gotten worse. Me and joey queue a lot together, and we have noticed the alarming trend of 2-3 feeders/******s per game.

2) You're right. I'm not really a Gragas player. At least not on this account. I played him quite often in the TR and the build that Joey is advocating is based off the build I tested him with in the TR originally. I play often enough with Joey's Gragas to see the kind of help he brings to our team, so it's not a blind bias.

3) His build doesn't get anywhere near 400 AP. I'm not sure why we keep using this number? Secondly, his nukes might not hit as hard as say...Anivia's, but they're still strong. And a 36 sec knockback/nuke ult is nothing to sneeze at.

4) I'm unsure of what you mean by "snaring". Are you talking about the slow from Body Slam? I never said he COULD tank hits from melee. I just provided a explanation of what Gragas can do if he's forced to melee. Nevertheless, there's not much fear of going into melee with him either in my opinion.

How about this? You're a Gragas player, correct? Try a few games with the tips, items and tricks Joey uses. Just a few. Take a look at how it does without looking down at it from past experiences, especially since that experience might have been pre-buff.


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Grimjack

Senior Member

02-28-2010

Quote:
incrediblyjoey:
As a rule of common sense, a caster should never charge into 1 or more carries. I feel as though this is obvious, and was not implied by Tibber's comment about handling melee. Looking back at the posts to see if there was a clarification issue, I noticed that Tibber's reply about melee is a "what to do if you come into contact with a melee", rather than a "this is how you kill in melee combat".

As for your comment about dealing with team mates that are under par; you aren't the only one suffering. The same thing has been happening to a number of players I know, including me. Even with these overwhelming odds, I have been able to pull out decent ratios almost every game with this build. Whether or not we win is completely different.

Go ahead and look at my profile and see.


.
Your ratios are somewhat irrelevant if you still lose the game. Anyone can be immortal standing at the fringe of combat.

The real question is did you contribute enough to the team to justify you being there verses another player.

With the matchmaker the way it is...who can even tell now. With such low level players on teams, the things they effect and the speed at which they can decay a game make it impossible to accurately say.

AP Gragas can't solo anyone at end game. So any kill he has during that time is nothing more than a killing blow.

I use 400ap as an example number, because I believe its very generous. 580 damage barrels (before that damage is reduced from magic resist) every 5 sec would take 20 seconds to kill a 2000 hp squishy. A 3500 hp tank? forget about it. ( Longer really, because you will only get that much damage through on somone with base magic resist)

My point is, being unable to get in melee range totally guts what little damage potential Gragas has. 500+ damage barrels is not enough contribution to a team when its 5 seconds between casts.


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Zombie Irwin

Senior Member

02-28-2010

why dont you just do a barrel roll?


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starmonkey

Member

02-28-2010

Cheers for writing a Gragas guide. I played him a lot over the weekend (barring the "scheduled" maint. period, hehe) and have found that focusing purely on AP makes you useless in teamfights after you roll your barrel and toss your cask.

I had a lot of success with AP/Tank hybrid, cause then I could tank for the team AND do respectable damage while waiting for my cooldowns. Flat magic pen. is key.

He's a big fat dude, he should take a beating.

I'm currently theorycrafting a tanky-dps build to take advantage of his body slam and drunken rage, but have yet to work that one out


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incrediblyjoey

Junior Member

02-28-2010

To Zombie Irwin: You know what? I think I will.

To starmonkey: Thanks, and gald to see another Gragas player. I run into the same problem as a straight up AP Gragas, thats why I shifted the focus to max CDR and get as much pen as reasonably needed. Maxing CDR gave me a sustained burst every 5 seconds. Good stuff. Good luck with your tank/dps build. If ever you need help, feel free to bounce ideas off me. I'd be more than glad to help you test him.


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Zombie Irwin

Senior Member

02-28-2010

Gragas seems to lack late game but is a good lane pusher early. He needs more buffs, or just a clear direction he can go in.


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ManOfTheRushHour

Senior Member

02-28-2010

Love the topic title but I feel playing Gragas as AP or Tank is worthless/doesn't contribute enough to a team as opposed to a DPS/Carry.

Here's why:
-2 "nukes"/ AP skillshots, imo, barrel roll is useless, I have no problem maxing out Drunken Rage and Body Slam first and staying in the front line getting last hits on minions as opposed to throwing a barrel and exploding it to do so.

There are plenty of AP champs that would put better use of the AP item build than Gragas.

-Tanking, with no real CC besides an AOE knockback/pushback, AOE slow; I feel you are gimping the team just as bad as an AP Gragas due to not being a threat at all. Ulti is fine, but after that, your team is gonna die before you being able to stop anyone else.

There are plenty of other Tanks I feel would be more useful than Gragas because of his lack of bringing anything in a team fight once his ulti is used and body slam nor barrel does **** for damage.



I'm not just making this stuff up as I have played a lot of Gragas and feel he can only be viable as a DPS/Carry.

As a DPS/Carry, I have no problem with initiating with ulti and picking off whoever I want. If the opponents tank initiates, I simply flash past him, body slam, and finish a caster quickly with my team. Drunken Rage+Body Slam is so great for a DPS/Carry Gragas because of +26%Damage Reduction and +70 Attack Damage it gives plus it's perfect for Body Slam.

Even ganking, I ulti the opponent towards me and Body Slam and kill them in a few hits.

My only recent losses have been because of 4v5s, but I can't complain, because that's matchmaking.




On games where my team is dominating, I've been buying a Rageblade and waiting to throw my barrel/ulti until I have full stack, then using them, so the barrels aren't entirely useless to me