Karthas: Why do so few kartha\us players use Rylais?

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Lone Blade

Senior Member

03-11-2011

and slows can stack in certain ways...


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Incendax

Senior Member

03-11-2011

Because nothing Karthus can do will generate the 35% slow. Even striking a single target with Lay Waste only generates a 15% slow because the spell is flagged as an AOE. You are free to test this out for yourself in a custom game with a friend. I have. This is a fact.

That does not make it a bad item, there are just higher priority items on Karthus item list.


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Flames of Love

Member

03-11-2011

Well to answer your question, the reason most Karthus players don't use Rylai's is primarily because most Karthus players don't have a **** clue. Most Karthus players stack archangels or do some stupid **** like this.

Good players generally agree that Karthus should have:
1. mercs/sorcs
2. mejai
3. deathcap

But let me be clear: Karthus cannot be played effectively with just his base HP. He also cannot be effective mid-game with just his base mana. So the other 3 slots have to resolve this issue somehow. Also, Karthus needs counter slots: slots left for situational items. There are some things Karthus has to counter like:

1. Dangerous enemies stacking too much MR.
2. Getting nuked down by magical burst.
3. Disables/Suppression/Initiation.
4. Frightening tanky DPS.

these are countered by

1. Void staff
2. BoV/FoN/Abyssal
3. QSS/BoV/Hourglass
4. Hourglass/GA

It really helps to have counter items. In particular, void staff makes a huge difference against MR stackers. A lot of the time you have to think about countering more than one of the above. That is why you really have to weigh the decision here.

You can get the HP and mana that Karthus needs with RoA or with Rylai + Tear. This means you have to choose between 1 counter slot or 2 counter slots. Is the slow worth the lost counter slot? I must say the slow does make a difference. Whether single target lay waste is 15% or 35% I can definitely say the slow strikes me as very effective. But if the enemy team has Irelia, Lux, Warwick, Taric, Ashe and Irelia/WW/Taric are stacking MR, would you be comfortable choosing BV OR Void when you really want both?

Also, there are other concerns about scaling. The catalyst that goes into RoA is much better for laning than a tear. Furthermore, Rylai + Tear is 4k gold while RoA is 3k gold for less HP/AP. Since deathcap is so good, you're not really getting an AA out of this set up until very late game. So effectively, you paid an extra 1000 gold, mostly for the slow.

So personally, I'm not sold on the effectiveness of Tear + Rylai's. But there some who think otherwise. For example, pdiz almost always does this build and he is currently 1800-1900ish Elo. I was more sympathetic to the build before Zhonya got split up into deathcap + hourglass.


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Incendax

Senior Member

03-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames of Love View Post
Good players generally agree that Karthus should have:
1. mercs/sorcs
2. mejai
3. deathcap
I cannot disagree more with your choice of Mejai. Mejai is the very definition of a Winmore item and if you are sincerely fighting good players then they are not going to die very often no matter how hard you try, and once the dying begins the game will be close to ending. Not to mention that using Mejai eliminates the possibility of using suicide tactics that are, upon occasion, the most effective thing you can do to win a teamfight.

Mejai is for destroying people in normal games, not for use against 'Good Players'.


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xzymethx

Senior Member

03-11-2011

why do ppl call karthus karthas... i never get that


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Flames of Love

Member

03-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Incendax View Post
I cannot disagree more with your choice of Mejai. Mejai is the very definition of a Winmore item and if you are sincerely fighting good players then they are not going to die very often no matter how hard you try, and once the dying begins the game will be close to ending. Not to mention that using Mejai eliminates the possibility of using suicide tactics that are, upon occasion, the most effective thing you can do to win a teamfight.

Mejai is for destroying people in normal games, not for use against 'Good Players'.
Mejai is a good item. It takes 5 stacks to break even on efficiency. Furthermore, Karthus can easily get stacks with his ultimate, 1000 range wall, and the tendency to damage almost everyone on the enemy team.

I think you are confusing 'good' players with 'better' players. If a player is better than you, you will have a hard time securing a kill. If you are as good as he is, then the chances fair again. High level games have as much killing and dying as low level games.

The number of deaths/kills in game is primarily determined by the comps on both team. Some team comps just don't lead to high kill games. That is all. As for suicide tactics, just think about it logically for a second. There is absolutely no dilemma here. If it's better for your team that you suicide rather than have, say, 40 extra AP, then you should suicide. Furthermore, if it's really better for your team this usually means 2+ kills so you can regain 2-4 of the lost stacks. People who won't die when they should because of mejai stacks are making poor judgments and are probably bad players. Actually, in my experience, people who think suiciding as Karthus is a routine part of his gameplay tend to be bad players. So maybe these two things are connected.


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Hedgemonster

Member

03-11-2011

Although I don't claim to know for sure (as two opposing opinions already have), it's my understanding that the game sees lay waste as an AoE spell if multiple enemies are in range of the explosion at the time it goes off; if not, the game reads it as a single target spell. Because of this, you can proc the 35% slow with it.

Regardless, I don't take Rylai's because you're paying a lot of money for that slow, and I don't find it very useful. Wall of Pain is such an easy slow to hit with, and since it's an 80% slow, stacking another slow on there wouldn't be super useful (due to diminishing returns on slowing). WoP is all I usually need to chase or escape, and it's generally pretty easy to hit people with lw that I don't think it'd be that much more useful there.

Overall, I'd rather pick up an RoA; the catalyst is useful for laning, you end up with slightly more health from it, and you get mana that 1. Karthus really needs, and 2. gives you another 20ish AP if you grab an AA.


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