[GUIDE] Ryze at Mid-ELO

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The Clap

Senior Member

02-10-2010

Thanks a lot Samus, for the great guide! I must admit that I was skeptical at first. I was a big fan of the low ap/ cd reduction / survival build - but I wasn't getting enough damage (I'd usually get more assists than kills, or enemy champions would flee after my burst damage with very low health, thumbing their noses at me).

A couple of elements of your guide that really stood out:
1) Strength of Spirit is awesome, especially at early levels - I often dont need to pop a health potion to stay in lane.
2) No need for a tear. Going straight to catalyst will give you better results (and I was a big tear fan, previously).
3) I used to have ghost and teleport for summoner skills.... eliminating teleport and replacing it with flash (a) saved my neck on numerous occasions, (b) makes you unpredictable to your opponents, (c) adds an additional layer of "fun" to playing Ryze.


Thanks again!


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Meta

Member

02-10-2010

Ok, I played 10 games last night going off this guide, here's the final turnout:

4 Wins, 6 Losses.
Many of the losses were because I was premading with less-experienced friends, and Ryze doesn't do well once the opposing team gets fed.

Here were my scores for the 10 games:

Win: 13-1-11
Win: 5-0-6
Loss: 3-4-4
Loss: 7-4-9
Win: 7-0-5
Win: 15-4-16
Loss: 4-5-1
Loss: 5-5-3
Loss: 5-4-5
Loss: 4-7-4

Some notes about Ryze and this playstyle in general:

  • Vs equally leveled/geared opponents, Ryze does extremely well. He's able to take apart squishies, and he's actually very powerful against tanks. In many of my games I was responsible for taking down a well feasted cho-gath.
  • Vs fed opponents, Ryze suffers a lot. If his initial burst isn't enough to put the enemy on the defensive, then they'll generally make him pay. Often Flash and Ghost are enough to escape, but they're only up every so often. Survivability items are good on Ryze, but he still needs a good offense to be a threat.
  • Ryze seems to do much better with an organized team (morso than other champs, even). In my solo-queue games, especially those with inexperienced tanks, I found I had a lot more trouble getting my stuff on. Half-assed engagements are really bad for Ryze. He really needs the rest of his team's support.
  • Champs that I found I had a lot of trouble with: Rammus, Tryndamere, Poppy
  • Strength of Spirit truly is all you've made it out to be. I rarely found myself having to go back for health, which was a constant-issue in past games with Ryze.
  • When compared to the utility other casters have (Primarily Annie and Anivia) Ryze is currently lacking. However, granting him the ability to survive a little better might make him all the more lethal. Enough burst could negate out the fact that his prison is inferior to stun tibbers or anivia wall/stun.


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Samus Araan

Senior Member

02-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meta View Post
Ok, I played 10 games last night going off this guide, here's the final turnout:

4 Wins, 6 Losses.
Many of the losses were because I was premading with less-experienced friends, and Ryze doesn't do well once the opposing team gets fed.

Here were my scores for the 10 games:

Win: 13-1-11
Win: 5-0-6
Loss: 3-4-4
Loss: 7-4-9
Win: 7-0-5
Win: 15-4-16
Loss: 4-5-1
Loss: 5-5-3
Loss: 5-4-5
Loss: 4-7-4

Some notes about Ryze and this playstyle in general:

  • Vs equally leveled/geared opponents, Ryze does extremely well. He's able to take apart squishies, and he's actually very powerful against tanks. In many of my games I was responsible for taking down a well feasted cho-gath.
  • Vs fed opponents, Ryze suffers a lot. If his initial burst isn't enough to put the enemy on the defensive, then they'll generally make him pay. Often Flash and Ghost are enough to escape, but they're only up every so often. Survivability items are good on Ryze, but he still needs a good offense to be a threat.
  • Ryze seems to do much better with an organized team (morso than other champs, even). In my solo-queue games, especially those with inexperienced tanks, I found I had a lot more trouble getting my stuff on. Half-assed engagements are really bad for Ryze. He really needs the rest of his team's support.
  • Champs that I found I had a lot of trouble with: Rammus, Tryndamere, Poppy
  • Strength of Spirit truly is all you've made it out to be. I rarely found myself having to go back for health, which was a constant-issue in past games with Ryze.
  • When compared to the utility other casters have (Primarily Annie and Anivia) Ryze is currently lacking. However, granting him the ability to survive a little better might make him all the more lethal. Enough burst could negate out the fact that his prison is inferior to stun tibbers or anivia wall/stun.
That all sounds about right. Ryze is NOT a hero who can single-handedly turn a game around and make up for a team's poor cohesion/bad players. He is not a Nasus. Against a good team he needs a good team at his back or he will have a very hard time, the same as most other heroes.

His utility blows compared to Anivia/Annie/Twisted Fate/Fiddlesticks and this is why he is worthless in high-ELO games. Those heroes bring almost as much AOE burst and much more team fight presence, and there is no build that will help Ryze catch up to them in that regard. Ryze is truly a carry, and like a Yi or Tryndamere, he needs his team to support him so he can stay alive and clean up. In that sense it almost isn't fair to compare him to Annie et al simply because that is not his role.

The problem with Ryze is the survivability/damage struggle. If you go pure AP then you will get more kills in those games you are going to lose due to having a bad team, but you will still lose. In a good game with two good teams, the pure AP build is too fragile and you get picked off, and my build really shines.

Ryze with pure AP with a bad team vs a good team = Loss
Ryze with my hybrid build with a bad team vs a good team = Loss

Ryze with pure AP with a good team vs a good team = 50% chance of winning (in my experience)
Ryze with my hybrid build and a good team vs a good team = 75% chance of winning (in my experience)

Ryze with pure AP with a good team vs a bad team = Win
Ryze with my hybrid build with a good team vs a bad team = Win

In higher ELO games you tend to to find that your team is usually pretty decent, as is your opponent's, hence why my guide is designed for that level of competition.

Also, don't be too hard on yourself yet, my friend. This method of playing Ryze takes some time to really get used to, and I am confident that you will see your win % rise over the next few days. When I team up with good friends on Vent with this build, my win percentage is about 80%. Almost all of my losses come about as a result of poor team cohesion or feeders, and that is something that most heroes lose to. The last game I lost where I was simply beat fairly was against a 5-man packing Annie, Alistar, Malphite, Twisted Fate, and Tristana. That was basically a high-ELO team, and all played well, and yeah I couldn't do a lot

Sadly Ryze is still only an average Hero, and not even close to top-tier, but he is better than most people give him credit for!


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Samus Araan

Senior Member

02-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatchet Man View Post
Thanks a lot Samus, for the great guide! I must admit that I was skeptical at first. I was a big fan of the low ap/ cd reduction / survival build - but I wasn't getting enough damage (I'd usually get more assists than kills, or enemy champions would flee after my burst damage with very low health, thumbing their noses at me).

A couple of elements of your guide that really stood out:
1) Strength of Spirit is awesome, especially at early levels - I often dont need to pop a health potion to stay in lane.
2) No need for a tear. Going straight to catalyst will give you better results (and I was a big tear fan, previously).
3) I used to have ghost and teleport for summoner skills.... eliminating teleport and replacing it with flash (a) saved my neck on numerous occasions, (b) makes you unpredictable to your opponents, (c) adds an additional layer of "fun" to playing Ryze.


Thanks again!
No problem! Strength of Spirit was the one strategy I almost didn't put in the guide, simply because NO ONE uses it and it gives me such a huge edge in the early/mid game. Glad you see how amazing it is


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Samus Araan

Senior Member

02-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbrage View Post
This guide makes a lot of sense - I look forward to trying it with the new Ryze buffs and giving some more insightful feedback. Before I do, here are some questions. Apologies if I somehow failed to find them in my thread search:

- Ryze snare gives him good game against tanks and melee-range carries, which implies Ryze is weak against Ranged Carries (Twitch / Trist / Ashe etc) and Casters. Banshee Veil makes a lot of sense to combat casters, but what do you do about Physical Ranged champions? I would guess Glacial Shroud.

- If Casters are a problem and justify Banshee Veil, why not Merc Treads? Unlike many other casters, Ryze has built-in magic pen, so I would have assumed you could postpone getting Magic Pen until later in the build.

- How does Rylai's Scepter interact with Desperate Power and Spell Flux? Is Spell Flux normally considered a single target spell? Does Desperate Power reduce the snare to your primary target, actually making reduce LESS if you activate it?

Thanks
Ranged Carries : Generally there is only one of them per game, so they are not a huge worry. Twitch's ult actually does magic damage, so Veil is great against him. Ashe and Trist you just gun down if you can, because their attack range is close enough for you to Flash/kill them. I have no issue with ranged carries as a rule.

Casters: Veil gives you amazing protection, mana, and health, and Sorc Boots ramp up your damage. Ryze walks a delicate balance between survivability and damage, and the whole point of Ghost/Flash is that you not be facing multiple CC that would make boots worth it. Ideally your Veil bubble will stop the only CC getting to you since you have superior positioning due to ghost/flash.

Rylai's: I believe that Flux is considered a single target spell, but not 100%. The main thing that Rylai's does for you is give you a big boost of health and a big boost of AP. Survivability and damage in the same item = good for Ryze.

Not sure what you mean by your question regarding snare. Elucidate?


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Meta

Member

02-10-2010

Well.... Just played Ryze post-buff.

The good news is that Ryze is now MUCH beefier (possibly too beefy).

The bad news is that your guide is pretty much moot now, because there's no need to build him with that much survivability.


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Ethernia

Senior Member

02-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meta View Post
Well.... Just played Ryze post-buff.

The good news is that Ryze is now MUCH beefier (possibly too beefy).

The bad news is that your guide is pretty much moot now, because there's no need to build him with that much survivability.
I disagree, this guide is still very good, just won 7 out of 9 games, one match in particular i went 20/3/7 with 3 turrets.

The survivability is still needed, the buffs were very nice, but i don't think it makes the guide any less effective.


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Samus Araan

Senior Member

02-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbrage View Post
Well colour me stupid. Nevermind then lol!


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Samus Araan

Senior Member

02-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbrage View Post
My question put another way is: If I have Rylai's and hit them with Overload while my ult is down, will it slow for more than if I hit them with it while my ult is up?
That is a really good question and to be honest I have NO CLUE. Will test.


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Samus Araan

Senior Member

02-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meta View Post
Well.... Just played Ryze post-buff.

The good news is that Ryze is now MUCH beefier (possibly too beefy).

The bad news is that your guide is pretty much moot now, because there's no need to build him with that much survivability.
I respectfully disagree. 8 hp per level increase and a little extra starting hp is not enough to render survivability items moot IMO. However the increased attack range is AWESOME!

My first game with new beefy Ryze: