Is lane Udyr viable?

12
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

iCaughtEmAll

Senior Member

03-10-2011

bump for runeset ideas


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

XLBiceps

Senior Member

03-10-2011

no, take tiger stance and walk on over to that blue buff ther


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fatwa

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

03-10-2011

Mitch, as someone who loves playing Udyr quite a bit, I can tell you that despite common theory, Lane Udyr is viable. However, it is not viable for every Udyr player, nor is it viable for those who try to apply Jungling builds to Laning.

http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...d.php?t=100610

Some of the statistical information and item builds may be off, but the playstyle is similar to the one outlined in the guide.

Lane Udyr works best with a bursty partner, or a ranged champ who can counter-harass. You should not be afraid of auto attacking creeps, but you should be extremely aware of how the creep waves are operating. Last hit when you can, pick on the cannon when possible for mana - it takes the longest to auto attack down. You should only be switching stances to block burst, or engage the enemy. If you attempt to Bear > Stun > Burst with your lane partner, and you're low mana, sit in Bear and let your mana regen just a bit. If the enemy tries to counter-harass or burst you, switch back to turtle. Otherwise, stay in turtle at all times.

It will likely take some getting used to, especially if you've played Udyr as a jungle champ, but once you get the hang of how to position yourself and when to pre-emptively disengage, you'll be good to go. It -is- however, dependent on who you end up laning against. In normal queue, you can definitely get screwed by blind pick, or you'll find yourself coming out of early game 5/0/3 because they can't handle the Lane Udyr.

First few levels of skills, if you know and trust your lane partner, start Bear and go for the early kill. Don't swap to Bear stance until you're ready to engage. If you don't trust your partner, or don't feel comfortable, start Turtle. Turtle > Bear > Turtle > Tiger (Bear > Turtle > Turtle > Tiger if you started Bear) for the first four levels. Once you hit 4, if you can wait until 5 to go for a burst, they won't be ready for the Tiger stance coupled with your combined burst. As always, engage with Bear. This usually works because for the first 3-4 levels, you've been relatively passive. With the above link, the OP has you take Phoenix last for the 3 skill, I personally tweak the skill order just a tad after maxing Tiger. I try to balance it to a 5/3/3/4 or a 5/4/3/3, depending on the flow of the game, and max Phoenix/Turtle in their respective orders.

As odd as it sounds, I personally rush a Wriggles (in conjunction with t1 boots), as it gives more map awareness, assists with creeping until I get higher levels of Phoenix Mid/Mid-late, and lifesteal + turtle is awesome. It also can assist me in helping out a Dragon kill early, depending on your luck with Madred's procs, something that cuts down on your overall mana usage. If the game goes late, I swap it out for another lifesteal item, or keep it for free baron wards depending on the flow of the game.

My first defensive item is usually a Banshees, as it helps keep the CC off of me as I'm running around in melee range, and offers a bit of MR. After that, it's dependent on their team composition.

So, I guess you could say my core is Wriggles, T2 boots (usually Merc), Banshees.

Just remember, it is viable, but if you're going Lane Udyr, your effectiveness is centered around your ability to engage and burst with Tiger. Banshees assists in you getting close enough to stun them, but stacking nothing but defensive items will leave you hitting like a wet noodle. Take advantage of Tiger, both its speed and its activate DoT. Remember that lifesteal + turtle is amazing, but that your damage is limited in that stance. Udyr is about finding balance between the stances in a variety of situations. Sometimes you'll get it right, other times you'll get it wrong.

Lane Udyr isn't for everyone, and a lot of people struggle with wrapping their heads around the idea that Lane Udyr in Blind Pick is an absolute gamble.

Finally, always mention in lobby if you're going to lane, and do so quickly so people understand that you're not jungling. This allows them to pick up a jungler, and shifts the responsibility to the rest of the team if they start QQing about the lack of jungle.

You will get ridiculed, you will get harassed, you will get insulted. View these people as the unfortunate souls who either A) cannot play Lane Udyr or seen those who cannot B) Have only seen Lane Udyr stuck in unfavorable positions due to Blind Pick, C) have seen Jungle Udyr builds trying to lane.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fatwa

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

03-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenerae View Post
It's not very good. At the low levels you'll be starved for mana, because switching stances will eat a huge chunk of your mana pool. You'll be obligated to pump up turtle stance first in order to be able to spam the damage shield for blocking harrassment and healing to stay in the lane, which makes your damage output poor. If you somehow can get away with not maxing turtle first and go tiger instead, theoretically you can do some nice harrass by smacking them with a tiger proc. Problem is of course, that you have to have enemies that will let you walk right up into their face without doing anything. Against anyone with a brain, you'll probably come away worse off. You could lane if you really and truly must, but the chances are good that you'll be unable to farm or do anything except soak up harrass with turtle stance until you run OOM, and then be forced to recall.

So really, it's not a good idea. If you have a partial jungle rune set, you should still be able to jungle if you alter the standard route a bit. You should be able to start at mini golems, then do wraiths and wolves (reaching lvl 3) in one pass without running oom. Then you should easily be able to handle blue. By the time you've taken blue, the golems have respawned again and you can keep jungling. It won't be completely optimal, but it should still yield an acceptable speed. And you get the advantage of being able to save the red buff for whenever seems a good time to begin ganking.
The only time you're going to be running into mana problems with Lane Udyr is if you're cycling stances too often, or you got a bad draw in your lane (face it, sometimes you're boned with any melee champ). Two ranks of Turtle and a Vamp are adequate for most of the early laning phase, if you're playing intelligently. If you only attempt to last hit creeps, you're not maximizing the effects of your turtle shield. You have to be intelligent about which creeps you're hitting and when. Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. If you're with a ranged partner, they have to be ready to harass any enemy that comes to harass you. Via Turtle you will soak up or heal past the -harass-.

At no point should a Lane Udyr be maxing Turtle first, and with Bear being picked up second and used sparingly, you'll be able to apply a lvl 3 Tiger to their face at lvl 6 which does considerable damage to most non-tanks. People will either get close to Udyr after 3 levels of passive play (unless you have a burst lane partner and have chosen to engage) or allow an opening for your partner to maneuver them into a bad position.

The quoted post is a player who cannot or will not adapt to the appropriate mindset necessary to play a Lane Udyr.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Cenerae

Senior Member

03-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatwa View Post
The only time you're going to be running into mana problems with Lane Udyr is if you're cycling stances too often, or you got a bad draw in your lane (face it, sometimes you're boned with any melee champ). Two ranks of Turtle and a Vamp are adequate for most of the early laning phase, if you're playing intelligently. If you only attempt to last hit creeps, you're not maximizing the effects of your turtle shield. You have to be intelligent about which creeps you're hitting and when. Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. If you're with a ranged partner, they have to be ready to harass any enemy that comes to harass you. Via Turtle you will soak up or heal past the -harass-.

At no point should a Lane Udyr be maxing Turtle first, and with Bear being picked up second and used sparingly, you'll be able to apply a lvl 3 Tiger to their face at lvl 6 which does considerable damage to most non-tanks. People will either get close to Udyr after 3 levels of passive play (unless you have a burst lane partner and have chosen to engage) or allow an opening for your partner to maneuver them into a bad position.

The quoted post is a player who cannot or will not adapt to the appropriate mindset necessary to play a Lane Udyr.
I'm sorry, but anybody that actually recommends laning with a vamp scepter, and even advocates autoattacking things in order to stay in the lane, has no idea how to lane correctly in the first place.

The simple truth is, because you CAN'T sit there and autoattack the minion waves (unless you like being ganked), Udyr has no good method for staying in the lane. Sure, you could skip turtle if you're somehow in a lane where people let you get that close (or have a stunner partner), but you'll be pitifully easy to harrass down that way in most situations.

There is a reason why you never, ever see Udyr lane except for once in a blue moon. It's because he's absolutely horrible at laning, but he is a very good jungler. Now, if you really want to 'adapt' (and by 'adapt' in your words means vamp scepter first and autoattacking minions if your opponents allow you to do so) and lane, be my guest. I'd love to face off against a laning Udyr, because I'd know it would be incredibly simple to win that lane. The only remotely viable way to make it work would be to partner him with a Taric or Sion to chain stuns off, and even then there are better picks for that sort of thing.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fatwa

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

03-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenerae View Post
I'm sorry, but anybody that actually recommends laning with a vamp scepter, and even advocates autoattacking things in order to stay in the lane, has no idea how to lane correctly in the first place.

The simple truth is, because you CAN'T sit there and autoattack the minion waves (unless you like being ganked), Udyr has no good method for staying in the lane. Sure, you could skip turtle if you're somehow in a lane where people let you get that close (or have a stunner partner), but you'll be pitifully easy to harrass down that way in most situations.

There is a reason why you never, ever see Udyr lane except for once in a blue moon. It's because he's absolutely horrible at laning, but he is a very good jungler. Now, if you really want to 'adapt' (and by 'adapt' in your words means vamp scepter first and autoattacking minions if your opponents allow you to do so) and lane, be my guest. I'd love to face off against a laning Udyr, because I'd know it would be incredibly simple to win that lane. The only remotely viable way to make it work would be to partner him with a Taric or Sion to chain stuns off, and even then there are better picks for that sort of thing.
Your insistence that you can never auto attack creeps is an indication of black and white thinking that will eventually undermine your play. You'll note that I consistently state that one must intelligently decide when and where to auto attack. Last hitting -only- will likely result in a lack of mana unless you find yourself in a situation where you're not being harassed and therefore not blocking burst with turtle, auto attacking every and any creep will result in you pushing the creep wave into the tower and is unnecessary if you're at reasonable health levels, unless they're a push champ (something you see more often now with the push meta).

As for Vamp, I never stated I start with a Vamp, just that my first item includes it and once I get that piece of the item puzzle, the effect of harass is diminished significantly. Starting with a Vamp wouldn't even offer usable returns due to the low damage numbers you'll be having at the start.

Again, you're clearly not capable of playing a Lane Udyr effectively, and this has been shown by your responses.

I'd suggest you actually reading before responding, especially if you're going to attempt to misconstrue statements to support your misguided stance.

Edit: Mitch, this is the type of misinformed commentary you can expect to hear/see when playing Lane Udyr, by Jungle Udyr players who think their knowledge of the champ is universal.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Awsome Josh

Junior Member

03-29-2011

If you really want to have some fun messing around with udyr in a lane try stacking cheap flat attack damage runes. Qunits are up to you, i grabbed movement speed but they cost a lot. Go offense tree for masteries to pick up attack speed, attack damage and magic pen (tiger stance does magic damage i believe). Grab ignite and flash/ghost.

Buy a Doran's Blade.

Get tiger stance and run fast to grass in bottom lane and wait patiently.

*DO NOT activate a stance yet.

Once an enemy gets in your melee range activate Q and attack him, while chasing him ignite and then hit Q again and get that second tiger proc on him. He is most likely going to die if its not a tank. With my runes and the 2-4 melee attacks that i can get off it usually does 500+ damage. So with a teammate this usually gets me first blood by 2:30 minutes.

If they are being wusses and wont engage, thats fine, stay hidden and seep xp until level 2, grab bear and enter bear stance. Wait 3 seconds flash to him, stun him and Q him to death.

I always level Q when available.

**It is important to realize that at the start of a game when udyr is not in a stance, his stance CD will NOT be activated for the first stance of the game. That is to say that you can hit Q twice in quick succession.The damage over time last 2 seconds, so try to wait for 1.5 seconds before hitting q again.

Do not stack AD mid game, ie don't be tempted to buy BF sword. You will be rather squisy. Tri Force rocks, Madreds owns, Lantern is great. All provide some AD and defense.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mr Threepwood

Senior Member

03-29-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatwa View Post
Your insistence that you can never auto attack creeps is an indication of black and white thinking that will eventually undermine your play. You'll note that I consistently state that one must intelligently decide when and where to auto attack. Last hitting -only- will likely result in a lack of mana unless you find yourself in a situation where you're not being harassed and therefore not blocking burst with turtle, auto attacking every and any creep will result in you pushing the creep wave into the tower and is unnecessary if you're at reasonable health levels, unless they're a push champ (something you see more often now with the push meta).

As for Vamp, I never stated I start with a Vamp, just that my first item includes it and once I get that piece of the item puzzle, the effect of harass is diminished significantly. Starting with a Vamp wouldn't even offer usable returns due to the low damage numbers you'll be having at the start.

Again, you're clearly not capable of playing a Lane Udyr effectively, and this has been shown by your responses.

I'd suggest you actually reading before responding, especially if you're going to attempt to misconstrue statements to support your misguided stance.

Edit: Mitch, this is the type of misinformed commentary you can expect to hear/see when playing Lane Udyr, by Jungle Udyr players who think their knowledge of the champ is universal.
Yes, he's not capable of playing lane udyr effectively, as the only way to effectivley lane udyr is against bots, or, to attempt to shut down your opponents internet connection. Auto attacking enemy creeps will result in you being harrased to heck and back against almost ANY champion played by a competent enemy. You have no way to harass them back, they WILL zone you out of exp, they WILL keep you from any last hits and your only chance to regain mana and health is when the creeps get to your turret. Even IF you could auto attack the enemy creeps (maybe your enemies are afk?) you'll be pushing your lane just to regain some miniscule health and mana, making you jungle bait. Udyr is not EXCELENT at escaping, so unless they have no decent snares, that's a bad position. (Of course, you've warded, so it's not that big a deal.) Except that your opponents can now zone you out of exp EVEN HARDER since your lane's pushed.

Udyr can ONLY lane with an ally who can set him up really well. Most melee champs have some form of ranged harrass, udyr has nothing, he is not a viable lane champ. Can it be done? Yes. Is he almost worthless in lane, outshined by EVERY other champion in the game in that position? Yes. That's how I define non-viable.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

mojozhu

Senior Member

03-29-2011

If you are under level 20, just buy flat armor everything for rune. You will be able to jungle with most champ with flat armor.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Praedoran

Senior Member

03-30-2011

From what I've read, the pros of lane Udyr seem to also be the reason why he's such a good ganker. However, Udyr needs two more things to get kills in the lane: Red Buff and the element of surprise. In my opinion, I'm of the crowd that Udyr belongs in the jungle. Going into a lane should only be temporary. If he's unsuccessful in a gank, or if he's taking over for a B or empty lane, he should be pushing the lane back (to quickly gain experience) and then getting back to the jungle.


12