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[Mini-Guide] Body by Judah: an Alistar Combo guide.

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Judah the Lion

Senior Member

02-08-2010

Quote:
Chang JungSu:
zzz too long, too big of words ... grrr english not so good .... j/k good guide


<3

Thanks, Chang! =D

Your build's still bad, bro. /insidejoke


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VasudeVa

Senior Member

02-08-2010

Videos would be nice.

It looks **** hard to do all those sheen combos.

I hit my Mini Forces, like once every 5 tries. I get overzealous and press Q way before headbutt begins. o.<. Will be trying that 4 frame tip, see if it helps.


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Judah the Lion

Senior Member

02-08-2010

Quote:
VasudeVa:
Videos would be nice.

It looks **** hard to do all those sheen combos.

I hit my Mini Forces, like once every 5 tries. I get overzealous and press Q way before headbutt begins. o.<. Will be trying that 4 frame tip, see if it helps.


Yep, you'll get antsy when pulling out the Q, dropping it prematurely. Just practice and it'll happen the way it should. Watch for the Head-butt animation and get used to that timing.

Actually, before this patch, to pull of the Mini-Force, you had to use Q right before the Head-Butt animation. It also had a larger window which made it strictly easier to execute. This made people think Riot took out the combo, which made quite a few vet. Ali's angry (lol), but fortunately it was just implemented differently with the newer animation.

It makes me think of a fighting game how specific you have to be when landing these, but believe me, it's well worth learning them and using them to expand on your Ali play. You'll not only surprise opponents, but make them fear you way~ early in the game, paving the way for a successful game.


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Talysien

Recruiter

02-08-2010

Doing this is pretty easy but it seems very situational. It doesn't punt them sometimes, and when it does it doesn't punt them all the way. So it doesn't seem to be for teamfights.

Am I doing it wrong? Also, the damage was alright, doing the more complicated combos, but it wasn't that epic. Seems too situational to me.

Am I wrong?


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just call me evo

Recruiter

02-08-2010

As an avid alistar fan, I can vouch for this knowledge. I had heard rumors of this existing for quite some time, but while trying to execute, I always Qed too early. While I'm not a huge fan of the inability to push the victim after, this is a pretty cool substitute for Flash while it's on CD, or catching a runner. Thanks so much!


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BamSucka

Senior Member

02-08-2010

I'm going to guess you play Street Fighter or fighting games often? I'm new to Dota but definitely not new to the fighting game scene.

Strict timing combos dependent on frames, BnBs, etc.

Thanks for the post, helps me relate a lot.

Also, this makes me want to try Alistar again.


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nicosharp

Senior Member

02-08-2010

the "mini-force" combo you mentioned isn't that great. The stun maybe lasts 1 second if you are lucky. You loss 1 sheen proc hit, and often times the shorter stun isnt enough time for your carry/other dps to get there and finish the job. This is only good very late game, after you have a phage type item (if you even get a phage), and when you have mana and cd to spam. Its much better to save both cd's for individual use and not miss a sheen proc, but then again it is very situation. Good pointers otherwise. If you want to see some of these tips in action, you can check-out my livestream here - Old recordings of Alistar (from the last few days).

http://www.livestream.com/nicosharp


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Judah the Lion

Senior Member

02-08-2010

Quote:
nicosharp:
the "mini-force" combo you mentioned isn't that great. The stun maybe lasts 1 second if you are lucky. You loss 1 sheen proc hit, and often times the shorter stun isnt enough time for your carry/other dps to get there and finish the job. This is only good very late game, after you have a phage type item (if you even get a phage), and when you have mana and cd to spam. Its much better to save both cd's for individual use and not miss a sheen proc, but then again it is very situation. Good pointers otherwise. If you want to see some of these tips in action, you can check-out my livestream here - Old recordings of Alistar (from the last few days).

http://www.livestream.com/nicosharp


I'm glad you have both an opinion and a video, but I'm going to have to directly disagree with the mini-force combo being "not that great" early game.

It gives you ranged AOE initiation on a 15 second CD, and will pretty much reduce most squishies to a grease spot if you have any form of DPS aside you.

It's better to understand when to use what than trying to stamp a certain technique inadequate in contrast to something else, because here, that's just not the case.

During the laning phases, yes, it it more mana efficient and practical to just out-maneuver your opponent with proper Pulverize/Head-butt placements, but say you have an early game gank/push strat. with a TF & Ashe in the river bush, and you with your laning partner gaining momentum on their tower. Here, you'd risk a lot by just waltzing up the someone and trying to pull them out, ditto if they have another Ali/Rammus/Singed/etc. . ., but if you play right, you can initiate, from range, an AOE stun for a probable x2 kill and a downed tower.

It's all situational and useful, and you're selling yourself short by thinking X is directly better than Y most of the time, failing to understanding their purpose and losing out of Alistar potential.

Edit: You don't lose any Sheen procs. if you use the M.F.P. btw.


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Judah the Lion

Senior Member

02-08-2010

Quote:
BamSucka:
I'm going to guess you play Street Fighter or fighting games often? I'm new to Dota but definitely not new to the fighting game scene.

Strict timing combos dependent on frames, BnBs, etc.

Thanks for the post, helps me relate a lot.

Also, this makes me want to try Alistar again.


Yes, much SF, KOF, VF, Tekken, GG, and others.

I did actually keep that in mind for those of you that were familiar with fighting games, and I'm glad it payed off!

Ali is a great tank, and probably the best atm. Riot has been, and seemingly will continue to, nerf Pulverize's stun duration (next path it's down to 2 seconds flat). While it's not a hopelessly detrimental nerf, it'll make you have to think more, be more accurate and swift with the inputs when landing these combos.

I can already imagine most people will be having a problem with Head-butt placement after the nerf when using the BnB-proc, but you do have enough time, even then with the 2 second Q, to do everything correctly. So, there's something to think about.

Cheers


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nicosharp

Senior Member

02-08-2010

Quote:
Judah the Lion:
I'm glad you have both an opinion and a video, but I'm going to have to directly disagree with the mini-force combo being "not that great" early game.

It gives you ranged AOE initiation on a 15 second CD, and will pretty much reduce most squishies to a grease spot if you have any form of DPS aside you.

It's better to understand when to use what than trying to stamp a certain technique inadequate in contrast to something else, because here, that's just not the case.

During the laning phases, yes, it it more mana efficient and practical to just out-maneuver your opponent with proper Pulverize/Head-butt placements, but say you have an early game gank/push strat. with a TF & Ashe in the river bush, and you with your laning partner gaining momentum on their tower. Here, you'd risk a lot by just waltzing up the someone and trying to pull them out, ditto if they have another Ali/Rammus/Singed/etc. . ., but if you play right, you can initiate, from range, an AOE stun for a probable x2 kill and a downed tower.

It's all situational and useful, and you're selling yourself short by thinking X is directly better than Y most of the time, failing to understanding their purpose and losing out of Alistar potential.

Edit: You don't lose any Sheen procs. if you use the M.F.P. btw.


I have no idea at what level you play, as I have never seen you in a game. Could well be a higher level than me, but all-in-all that doesn't matter. Just some things I have noticed:

1- my reference to early game, is when you are still laning, and don't have a lot of mana to be wasting on a 'MF' If you are going sheen first, you wont have the regen, and if you go regen first, your 'MF's (or 'MFP's') will be that much more useless for a longer period of the game.
2- the reduced stun, (and please tell me it's not reduced but ive never seen it last longer than a second), you get when you 'MF' in the early game will crutch you more than likely then blowing a summoner skill to postion yourself for the full duration stun, or a headbutt to wall + stun.
3 - the 'MFP' I have never seen done after patch, but I am sure it is possible. What has happened if you are lucky, is the headbutt, and sheen attack will proc, and you will hit a small pulverize, but the pulverize will not reactivate sheen. This might just be perfected through play and possible, but I haven't seen it happen.

I rarely see Alistar's at top level play doing the 'MF' and that is mainly because it is usually situationally a disadvatage to do, because
1, you have a very slight chance to keylock and miss.
2, and most importantly, your stun length is reduced (correct me if this is wrong, never seen a full duration stun from this combo)
3, your 2 moves to position for a kill are now on cd, where 1 could be up to keep abuse on the target longer.
4. you blow mana that is very important to continue to push the lane with.