Hextech vs. Magic; How I learnt to start worrying about Riot's feelings about Science

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DrTemptragon

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Senior Member

07-03-2012

Jayce's Lore really, really upset me. However, there's enough complaining about that topic right now, and my voice will add to it not enough.

However, it did make me step back and think about Riot's approach to science, hextech and transhumanism as a whole in League Lore.

Frankly, it's disgusting.

There are AT LEAST 26 champions whose main feature is magic stemming from them, and amoungst them we have a fairly decent split of good evil and neutral.

Good: Anivia, Galio, Janna, Kassadin, Lux, Ryze, Sona, Soraka, Taric, Zilean
Neutral: Ahri, Annie, Cassiopeia, Karma, Karthus, Kayle, LeBlanc, Lulu, Morgana, Nidalee, Swain, Xerath
Evil: Brand, Fiddlesticks, Malzahar, Veigar, Vladimir

For reference, my definitions of Good, Neutral and Evil are "attempts to help others", "looks out for self/sees merits in everything/is incomprehensible by standard human morality" and "attempts harm of others or cares not for the harm they cause", respectively.

Now, let's look at Hextech/Science users. There are only 10 that I could find/think of off the top of my head, including Jayce.

Good: Ziggs(?), pre-Jayce Viktor
Neutral: Blitzcrank, Corki, Jayce, Heimerdinger, Orianna, Rumble
Evil: Singed, Urgot, Post-Jayce Viktor, Warwick

For those curious about why Pre-Jayce Viktor is placed under "Good", it's because his Hextech augmentations helped him and he wanted to spread them to other people. Yes, this is more tenous than it could be, but there is no evidence of him doing evil things to achieve his goals, not even to Stanwick.

So... Would it really hurt to have some good Science users? Or least one whose motivation isn't "SCIENCE" or "REVENGE" or "I'M A MASS-MURDERER".


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1Eredale

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07-03-2012

So, basically, you are implying that technology is supposed to be just as popular as... magic that fuels said technology?


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Írillyth

Senior Member

07-03-2012

*ahem*

inb4 Adeptus Mechanicus takeover.


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DrTemptragon

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07-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Eredale View Post
So, basically, you are implying that technology is supposed to be just as popular as... magic that fuels said technology?
I'm trying to say that Riot thinks that "Evil Scientist" is a more popular character archetype than "Good Scientist", but hasn't actually tried to make a dedicated good scientist.


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Cerubois

Senior Member

07-03-2012

I'd say Heimer is pretty good. He wants to invent and improve things for people and generally pursue greater knowledge for his race and the world.


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Quiksilvur

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07-03-2012

I would put both Heimerdinger and Ziggs in Good, because Heimerdinger is working for the betterment of Runeterra, and Ziggs has proven himself a hero by risking himself to save his colleagues from danger.


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DrTemptragon

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07-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
I'd say Heimer is pretty good. He wants to invent and improve things for people and generally pursue greater knowledge for his race and the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiksilvur View Post
I would put both Heimerdinger and Ziggs in Good, because Heimerdinger is working for the betterment of Runeterra, and Ziggs has proven himself a hero by risking himself to save his colleagues from danger.
While I agreed with this a while ago, a few re-reads of Heimer's lore and quotes later, I'm not so sure. It doesn't read as so much helping people as Heimer is literally addicted to science.

Ziggs is a different matter. Your point is quite vaild.


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leonidas333

Junior Member

07-03-2012

Indeed, I must agree here, although with some protests on the rankings, the trend is quite clear. We cannot dismiss the popular held beliefs that magic is good and that the type of technology one would encounter in the league (namely the over the top powerful) is one associated more with evil. But it would be nice to see some breaking of the trend, and Viktor seemed like a good example. But all the "good" people are still by many definitions insane. Ziggs is obsessed with explosions, Viktor experimented on himself. We need a stable, good technology user to balance the mad scientists of the good, not to mention the evil side.


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H3llion

Senior Member

07-03-2012

i wouldnt call Brand evil so much as a literal force of nature thats meant to burn stuff down so new stuff can grow, its not his fault people just happened to build civilization where he's supposed to do his job


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n30sh4d0w

Member

07-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTemptragon View Post
I'm trying to say that Riot thinks that "Evil Scientist" is a more popular character archetype than "Good Scientist", but hasn't actually tried to make a dedicated good scientist.

Actually what you bring up is not something that just plagues Riot but its thematic forefathers of DC, Marvel, Dark Horse and Tolken to a very lesser extent. (Yes its quite obvious Riot writer's borrowed rhetorical ideas from super hero comics. Its not a crime to base your creations on the heroes of your childhood.)
Hextech magic is metaphorically science in the LOL universe.In hero/superhero universe's their are no good scientist, more specifically inventor's or scientist that actually help society through their inventions. This is because 90% of important scientists in superhero universes become villains while 10% become superhero's with masks/capes. Scientist that become superhero's are good heros, but not good scientists for various reasons. Why do you think that is?

Well, I don't know all the reasons but I know two of them. First, they often keep their discoveries, which often give them superpowers, a secret for "fear of it falling into the wrong hands". So, they only use their technology for themselves. In other words, they help people using technology, but they don't allow the technology itself to help people. Second, in the rare plot arc were a scientist turn hero does actually share his discoveries often either a) villian steals/exploits the use of shared technology or b) the shared technology in is new use goes awry and starts to kill people. Ether way the hero has to destroy his own technology in order to save people.

Thus, there are no normal scientists in fictional hero universes and their are not normal paradigm shifts in fictional hero universes. (In fact, in hero universes paradigm shifts often are metphorically played out in superhero wars instead literal paradigm shifts that happen through corresponding.)

In fact, the old way, that fictional universes keeps up with modern society or ahead of modern society is through spontaneously discovered mcguffin's that might or might not have plot holes. Often in large series, these mcguffin's build upon one another to do a reboot of the series or loose fans.

I say the old way because I am trying lead into the fact that Dr. Tempdragon is right that their are many other ways to respecting science while still having science fiction and still talk about cool science. Can you think of any?

Before I continue on with my on suggestions, the author of this thread has made an assumption that I do want to get clarification on. Hextech magic is metaphorically science in the LOL universe. Lore-wise does hextech magic or "science" really make progress though paradigm shifts through only the villians? Were their once or are any good Hextech users that have shared their work?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTemptragon View Post
While I agreed with this a while ago, a few re-reads of Heimer's lore and quotes later, I'm not so sure. It doesn't read as so much helping people as Heimer is literally addicted to science.

Ziggs is a different matter. Your point is quite vaild.
Its seems you all made a quantum leap, to something I entangled my way to figuring out. Still I don't know everyone's lore, so call me curious, are Ziggs and Heirmer the only people?


With Ziggs and Heirmer we can however, test some of the genealizations and posulations, I mentioned above. Ziggs Herimer are both scientist's that have become good heros. Are they then not good scientists? How fruitful to LoL have the ideas of Ziggs and Heimer been? Or do they just use it themselves to help people?

First aspect of fruitfalness of a scientific idea:
Do any other hero's use Zigg's or Heimer's inventions? Are any of their inventions items in the game? Do we know of any specific technologically that Ziggs or Heimer have created that have public uses that are mentioned in the Lore? (like firework's prehaps?)
Second aspect of a scientific idea:
Zigg is a professor, so he teaches people in college. Do we know of any student's of Zigg or Heimer? Do we know anyone who has based their technology on Zigg's or Heimer's to do good?