Top tier champions....

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Bilun

Senior Member

02-12-2011

Are always fair game for a nerf.

It doesn't matter if they aren't the most ridiculous champ in the game. Doesn't matter if they don'tutterly break the game. Doesn't matter if all the people playing them are utterly convinced 'they are fine'. Deal with it; it's the risk you run playing champions at the top of the current meta.


Things that are top tier are there because they are currently the best; I can't fathom how people are so surprised when the champions who are currently best at their respective roles get nerfed.



And fun fact #2: top tier champions can almost always bear a few nerfs without suddenly becoming useless unless your definition of 'useless' is simply not top tier. Most nerfed champions don't really drop below mid-range power;

Shaco and Rammus are still on the high side of the power curve.


Ezreal, Twisted Fate, and Garen still inhabit places in the upper middle-lower middle areas of the power curve. Perhaps not ideal, but far from garbage tier.

And yes, sometimes riot overnerfs; balancing ain't exactly a simple process. And champions like Garen and heimer who received overly extreme initial nerfs have had subsequent buffs. Of course by contrast no one talks about the champions with extremely appropriate nerfs like Miss fortune; only the times they believe riot has ****ed up, perpetuating the misconception that they do screw up more often then not.


The simple fact of the matter is that if the same meta continues forever it will get very very stale. A fundamentally important part of maintaining a competitive game is making sure that the meta is gradually shifting; no champion can have their time in the sun forever. I'm not saying Champions should be nerfed to oblivion; they shouldn't. But being dropped to mid-range power is not oblivion, it's the norm.



Anyway that concludes my little rant. Starting to get really tired of seeing people act as if the sky is falling every time their top tier champion get nerfed just because the champion doesn't really much stand out from the other top tier picks. If you're playing casual the champion will still likely be viable and if you're playing in a really competitive environment you're likely basing your pick on your team composition(rather then picking the same guy every time) and what's currently top tier and should have little trouble adapting to the changes.


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Eugenides

Senior Member

02-12-2011

I like this, it is so true. Well said sir. A meta that gets stale means a game that gets stale.


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chenjy9

Senior Member

02-12-2011

Tweaking champions has always been fine by me. Take Anivia's recent upcoming nerf for instance. I main Anivia and it doesn't bother me at all because it is not that big a deal. Yeah it kind of sucks that I can't chase them down from as far to hit them with my E, but it is not that big a deal and hardly the end of the world. Most of the time I E + R instead anyways. What does bother me though, is Riot listening to QQ'ing noobs who have no idea what the hell they are talking about and OVERNERF a champion, which is something they do very often and is indeed a screw up on their part.


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xKHORNExLORD420

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Senior Member

02-12-2011

I hope they overnerf anivia. I don't like her as a part of this game and I'd rather not see her again. just saying.


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Giltia Zero

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Senior Member

02-12-2011

No.

You're a moron.

Top Tier is what ALL champions should aspire to become. OP and Top Tier are not the same thing at all. Ashe is Top Tier. Ashe is not OP.


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zhudac

Senior Member

02-12-2011

Go tell that to Galio, Jax, or Twitch.


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chenjy9

Senior Member

02-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giltia Zero View Post
No.

You're a moron.

Top Tier is what ALL champions should aspire to become. OP and Top Tier are not the same thing at all. Ashe is Top Tier. Ashe is not OP.
That's how it should be. Unfortunately, Riot doesn't see eye to eye with you, just the QQ'ing masses.


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Our Hero Niko

Senior Member

02-12-2011

i dont think teirs should exist... thats why balancing needs to be more often and vigilant with who needs it


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Bilun

Senior Member

02-12-2011

First off I'd like to clarify that I don't mean all tier 1 champions should be methodically nerfed; just that any of them are really fair game. When you play one of the best champions at an archetypical role you shouldn't be overly surprised if at some point they get less powerful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giltia Zero View Post
No.

You're a moron.

Top Tier is what ALL champions should aspire to become. OP and Top Tier are not the same thing at all. Ashe is Top Tier. Ashe is not OP.
That is an unrealistic goal that would only lead to power creep.



With the sheer number of champions available, no company would stand a realistic chance of getting all or even most to be 'top tier.'


I've worked on balancing a few small games and let me tell you that it's nigh impossible to really get more then a handful(maybe a dozen at best) champions to be 'top tier.'


Someone will always come out a bit ahead. If you focus on only buffing you end up with a gradually increasing power level as you eventually buff someone above the present top tier and only have the recourse of buffing the old top tier champs. Really it just seems that the best champions get nerfed.

Does that mean only nerfs should be applied? Hell no. The opposite of power creep is just as destructive to the game. There needs to be a sensible mix of nerfs to the guys on top and buffs to those near the bottom(or even those in the lower-mid part of the power curve).


It doesn't really speak well for your argument that you open with ad hominim either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Our Hero Niko View Post
i dont think teirs should exist... thats why balancing needs to be more often and vigilant with who needs it
Really I didn't mean in my thread that a tier list should be strictly adhered to. A tier list poses a good snapshot of the metagame in a given ELO bracket and nothing else. They are a reflection of the opinions of those who play in said ELO bracket, and thus generally give a pretty good idea of the current metagame(which may well overlook an untapped strategy). That said they generally can be used to obtain a pretty good idea of what champions fill a given role best in a given level of play.


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Giltia Zero

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Senior Member

02-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilun View Post
That is an unrealistic goal that would only lead to power creep.

With the sheer number of champions available, no company would stand a realistic chance of getting all or even most to be 'top tier.'
Don't get me wrong, I know full well that perfect balance is impossible. However, only ACTUALLY overpowered champs should be nerfed. Top Tier is a way to say one of two things. 1: Champ is OP and does insanely well in competitive play because of it. Or 2: The champion is well ballanced and synergizes well with themselves or other champions, allowing for superior play based around proper application of their abilities.

Nerfing GOOD champions is not the way to balance a game. Buffing weak character till they're higher tier is the right way. Obviously, buffing someone past top tier would deserve a nerf, and buffing straight TO top tier would likely result in mistakes. But it's the ideal that should be in mind when applying buffs and nerfs.

Nerfing everyone to be equal is as easy as making every character the exact same. Making every character nearly equal in utility and ability on the other hand is more fun and more balanced.

I'd like to be able to reasonable use every character. But some are unreasonably bad. I don't wan't everyone to be that bad. I just want that one character to be better so he can compete.

Alistar, looking at your 300 base move speed...


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