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I hate this community

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Landrein

Member

10-05-2014

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Since A is negated by the functions of the system, that leaves B. If you know of a viable alternative reason for doing so, I'd be glad to hear it. I've never thought of one myself.


Since this is our main point of contention, and I don't wish to be negative either, I will focus on this, using peer pressure to ensure people act within community standards is by not by definition bullying. Also, invoking the community to show consensus to declare that a course of behavior is inappropriate can me more effective than punishments alone. Ultimately this behavior wont be fixed until the community refuses to condone it. More specifically, most of these places are using the community for affirmation after the negative behavior of the aggressor has suppressed the aggrieved, as is made apparent when many people ask for reports AFTER the troll has left the room and will not know he was reported in the first place. That can't possibly be considered bullying if it has no affect on the troll at all.


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Jubbinaut

Recruiter

10-05-2014

Quote:
Landrein:
Since this is our main point of contention, and I don't wish to be negative either, I will focus on this, using peer pressure to ensure people act within community standards is by not by definition bullying. Also, invoking the community to show consensus to declare that a course of behavior is inappropriate can me more effective than punishments alone.

In principle, I agree with you. However, I do not believe that the middle of a game is the appropriate time or place to do so. I also believe that most of the players who get labeled as "trolls" aren't actually anything of the sort, and calling them out in that manner will only create a more negative situation than already existed.

But I agree. It's important for the community to have a voice to show what we believe is and is not acceptable. We have tools that allow us to do so, too. The Report system, when used properly, is the first step of that, allowing players to report what they feel to be unacceptable behavior. When it returns, the Tribunal will again be the next step, allowing more objective players to speak forth about whether or not they agree that the behavior is acceptable.

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Ultimately this behavior wont be fixed until the community refuses to condone it.

I do not believe that the community at large does condone it. Perhaps I am mistaken in that belief, but what I have seen supports it.

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More specifically, most of these places are using the community for affirmation after the negative behavior of the aggressor has suppressed the aggrieved, as is made apparent when many people ask for reports AFTER the troll has left the room and will not know he was reported in the first place. That can't possibly be considered bullying if it has no affect on the troll at all.

It's my experience that calls for reports tend to occur during the game rather than after. I suspect that's what the rule is in place for. I know that calling for reports in post-game wouldn't have mattered to the Tribunal (since post-game chat wasn't available for viewing in the old Tribunal). And I suspect that the presence or absence of players from that post-game room would be accounted for by Riot's reviews (assuming they look over post-game on a regular basis anyway). Even so, if reports aren't being called until after the toxic players have left, there's no real concern about retaliatory reports, anyway, so cases against such players shouldn't be built unless there's other, more negative behavior being demonstrated elsewhere. So I don't think what you're describing here is particularly problematic.

Even so, there's still no benefit to it. It won't build a case against them any faster, nor will it force a punishment if a case is built. So I would still advise against it, because why risk it when there's no benefit?


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Landrein

Member

10-05-2014

Quote:
Even so, if reports aren't being called until after the toxic players have left, there's no real concern about retaliatory reports,


In my experience, people don't do retaliatory reports as much as trolls will just use the report system to harass whoever they were already harassing. Also, The sheer number of trolls in games in this community is because the communities actions condone it. Its all in how you create a troll.

Most people i find don't start their first ranked game trolling. They gradually become more negative as the community acts against them, they watch the silence or celebration of game opponents at the presence of trolls, and they do not see any punishment on those who harass them. (even if they are punished, there is nothing to notify the player that any offender was reported.) That might actually be interesting if players got a report on the percentage of their reports that received discipline. In other words, we as a community aren't just victims of toxicity, we are the manufacturers of it.

What a player is looking for when he asks people to report someone for verbal harassment is that affirmation that he was wronged and that the community finds that wrong unacceptable, he is looking for the community to step up. I understand that. I suspect, if the report system told people when someone they reported was punished, there would be fewer demands for reports in games, because they would get their affirmation from the game system. I doubt that would ever happen though.


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Jubbinaut

Recruiter

10-05-2014

Quote:
Landrein:
In other words, we as a community aren't just victims of toxicity, we are the manufacturers of it.

This, to me, was always somewhat self-evident, if not always in the way you describe. It's part of why I come and post here and in TBI: because so many people want there to be less toxicity, and then go and add to it. The lesson I hope to share is purely "be the change you want to see in the world."

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What a player is looking for when he asks people to report someone for verbal harassment is that affirmation that he was wronged and that the community finds that wrong unacceptable, he is looking for the community to step up.

See, I hadn't thought of that. Good point.

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I suspect, if the report system told people when someone they reported was punished, there would be fewer demands for reports in games, because they would get their affirmation from the game system. I doubt that would ever happen though.

I agree. I would also love to encourage those players to instead take part in the Tribunal (when it's back up, anyway) as an alternative. That's actually how I found my way here. After a few really rough, very toxic games, I saw one of those pop-ups about the Tribunal, and went to look into it. It became the way I handled that sensation of "nothing happens to these people," because I could see what happened to them.

One of Riot's biggest failings in my eyes, particularly as relates to their behavioral systems, is the lack of effective communication. There's no real compilation about how all these systems operate, no easy place to find information about them - discounting Ulanopo's awesome Knowledge Bases, and many people ignore those because they're player-created. And I think that plays directly to the perception you're referring to. Even if they didn't offer specific feedback like that, I think better sources of information on how the systems work would do a lot to assuage those kinds of concerns.


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Dagloce

Member

10-06-2014

Riot mentality:"Got taunted by trolls?Well then get banned,*****!What's it you say,it's unfair?Get over it!What the actual trolls themselves?Who the **** cares?!"


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R3dlegend

Member

10-06-2014

Quote:
Dagloce:
Riot mentality:"Got taunted by trolls?Well then get banned,*****!What's it you say,it's unfair?Get over it!What the actual trolls themselves?Who the **** cares?!"

Riot says to not retaliate, as if they wouldn't. If somebody harasses you and you retaliate, it's not really your fault. They say just muted the person and report them at the end of the game. In many cases, that person will get their team to attack you as well. The #1 problem with this community is that the senior members will down vote all replies and posts they do not like. Riot will not fix trolls, because they simply do not care. Taking action against the people who retaliated because they got attacked does not show that they care. Watch this get about 10 negative votes. Calling it.


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Durtee

Recruiter

10-06-2014

Just mute all and continue playing "your" game, report after. I dont understand why people feel the need to make situations worse. I have a friend banned on 2 accounts for his "I'm going to tear them a new a$$hole til they play better" attitude.

P.S. Dont feed the Trolls(common knowledge)


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