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Why was Talon's silence removed?

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EffectFX

Senior Member

10-05-2014

Quote:
PerfidiousAlbion:
Ah, but it's fine when a champion has a high range skill-shot CC and burst, right? Because it requires skill now? That's an argument that requires validation, and I have yet to hear any. Me needing to land a skillshot isn't a big deal, as that's a fundamental part of the game. And in the event that I miss, so what? Skillshots have high range so I've invested nothing but some mana into the endeavor, and I've taken next to no risk. I'll just try again in 10sec. But if I hit, well that Syndra, Ahri, etc isn't going to have any issue nuking you down in the time that you're completely incapacitated. Never mind the fact that many of those champions have mobility abilities that make landing said skillshot easier.

Then there's the fact that there are still other mages with targeted hard CC and burst. Annie's burst does similar damage to Talon's, and she's providing a targeted 1.25-1.75sec stun, and hell it's AoE for teamfight awesomenes. She even has higher range than Talon. Malz does way more damage on his rotation, and while his targeted CC is on his ult Talon's burst is dependent on his ult too. Same thing with Veigar. Or are we going to nerf/rework every damage champ with targeted CC just because a few people on the forum have apparently decided that's the way it's supposed to be, when the reality of the situation is quite different?

Being in melee range makes quite the difference once teamfights start. In lane it also means you're taking damage from minions, which can add up to quite a bit, as well as making it easier for the enemy jungler to gank you.

A 1sec silence isn't strong CC. It's actually quite weak.


Yes. You can avoid/dodge skill shots.It's not guaranteed CC on a champ with high burst. No risk is highly subjective to who you are and who you're landing against. That's fine, that's their reward for landing their CC and punishment for the enemy for not avoiding it. I am not saying that Syndra/ahri are or are not overtuned.

Champions with high burst and targeted non-ult CC are very likely to be reworked as time goes by.That I'd reality based on the current trend in Riot's balance philosophy.

I suppose it's a good thing Talon has a good AOE damag, long duration stealth/MS steroid, and can buy wards.

A 1 sec silence is too much on a assassin.


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PerfidiousAlbion

Senior Member

10-05-2014

Quote:
EffectFX:
Yes. You can avoid/dodge skill shots.It's not guaranteed CC on a champ with high burst. No risk is highly subjective to who you are and who you're landing against. That's fine, that's their reward for landing their CC and punishment for the enemy for not avoiding it. I am not saying that Syndra/ahri are or are not overtuned.

Champions with high burst and targeted non-ult CC are very likely to be reworked as time goes by.That I'd reality based on the current trend in Riot's balance philosophy.

I suppose it's a good thing Talon has a good AOE damag, long duration stealth/MS steroid, and can buy wards.

A 1 sec silence is too much on a assassin.


This argument is incredibly thin and very circular. It's ok for some champions to CC/burst you, but only if it's a skillshot, never mind the fact that it's higher range/lower risk. Oh and the several other champions that have targeted CC/burst don't matter because you assume that they'll be changed even though no indication has been given that this will be so. Riot has made no statement that this is the case. They've just been nerfing assassins. They can't hit their damage, as then they aren't functional anymore, so they hit their utility. That doesn't mean this is going to happen to all champions.

2.5sec stealth/MS is long duration now? It's one of the shortest in the game as it happens.

A 1sec, single target silence is too strong on an assassin, when there are other assassins with stronger CC (Fizz says hello!). But I'm sure Fizz doesn't count either, even though it's harder CC and in an AoE, and he has better evasive tools and twice the number of gap closers. Because its a skillshot.


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EffectFX

Senior Member

10-05-2014

Not really. Trends aren't to hard to follow, Viktor had His silence removed from his ult so that suggests a trend towards removing instant cast CC.

Is it only 2.5? Guess it just feels long because of the distance you can cover with it.

Fizz CC is avoidable (on top of beingvhis ultimate) and his AOE damage is smaller than talons.


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GhostbladeX

Member

10-05-2014

Quote:
wolfax:
... Blind is its equivalent for ADCs, but it's really only found on one champion and I wouldn't be surprised to see Teemo changed and the blind removed.

Um, forgot Quinn and Graves (in a fasion). Teemo's never was the only one with blind, even old Heimerdinger had a blind.


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PerfidiousAlbion

Senior Member

10-05-2014

Quote:
EffectFX:
Not really. Trends aren't to hard to follow, Viktor had His silence removed from his ult so that suggests a trend towards removing instant cast CC.

Is it only 2.5? Guess it just feels long because of the distance you can cover with it.

Fizz CC is avoidable (on top of beingvhis ultimate) and his AOE damage is smaller than talons.


The trend is to nerf assassins. That's all. You're extrapolating because of what you'd personally like to see. The trend of Assassins being repeatedly nerfed is hardly new. It's been going on for years now.

Viktor's ults silence was only half a second, so short that it was primarily useful as an interrupt. His ult still interrupts they just no longer call it a silence. The change was largely semantics.

Fizz's CC is higher quality, knock up >>> silence, and in an AoE. It's also followed by a slow. And it has nearly twice the range. And it's high damage. But whatever, it's a skillshot, so any/all power is justified. Where as targeted abilities should basically be removed from the game, because they aren't allowed to have any real power. At least according to you. And you decide the design direction these days. Talon's only form of evasion, which isn't overly strong as it happens, is also tied to his ult and that wasn't important before.

The idea that landing a skillshot means it's ok to delete the enemy champion is ridiculous. They are significantly higher range and usually lower cooldown. That's a significant advantage already. They don't need to be the only worthwhile forms of CC as well. The whole argument is preposterous.


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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

10-05-2014

Quote:
GhostbladeX:
Um, forgot Quinn and Graves (in a fasion). Teemo's never was the only one with blind, even old Heimerdinger had a blind.

Graves' blind isn't the same kind of thing; if you're going to count him, how the hell could you forget Nocturne?

As for actual Blind CC; Teemo, old Heimerdinger, Shaco pre-nerf, Corki pre-nerf, really old version of Exhaust...and Quinn.


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EffectFX

Senior Member

10-05-2014

Quote:
PerfidiousAlbion:
The trend is to nerf assassins. That's all. You're extrapolating because of what you'd personally like to see. The trend of Assassins being repeatedly nerfed is hardly new. It's been going on for years now.

Viktor's ults silence was only half a second, so short that it was primarily useful as an interrupt. His ult still interrupts they just no longer call it a silence. The change was largely semantics.

Fizz's CC is higher quality, knock up >>> silence, and in an AoE. It's also followed by a slow. And it has nearly twice the range. And it's high damage. But whatever, it's a skillshot, so any/all power is justified. Where as targeted abilities should basically be removed from the game, because they aren't allowed to have any real power. At least according to you. And you decide the design direction these days. Talon's only form of evasion, which isn't overly strong as it happens, is also tied to his ult and that wasn't important before.

The idea that landing a skillshot means it's ok to delete the enemy champion is ridiculous. They are significantly higher range and usually lower cooldown. That's a significant advantage already. They don't need to be the only worthwhile forms of CC as well. The whole argument is preposterous.


No, it's the path Riot is likely to take if they continue on this trend. It won't happen fast or immediately, but they'll slowly head that direction unless they decide the inherent weakness's of the other characters are enough to gate the mix of damage and instant CC.

It was an example, and yes it was more or less a fancy interrupt.

Fizz' CC is avoidable, both by being dodged and can be dropped by QSS (you just drop the shark, it still pops up), avoided with Zhonyas or a invuln spells (though currently it's bugged with Vlad). Not terribly hard to do so unless he gets you out of the fog of ward or you have 0 mobility and no boots yet. It's not targeted abilities that's the problem. It's non-ultimate targeted CC on champions with incredible burst (more so if they're ahead of you).

Quote:
EffectFX:
I am not saying that Syndra/ahri are or are not overtuned.


If you think their CC is a problem, then dodge it.


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Sleeper Cell

Senior Member

10-05-2014

Okay, so originally I thought this wouldn't change much and actually buff his damage. I was only half-right. He is in a much worse spot now. There's just too many things you can do to react to Talon. Especially on the current meta hypercarry Tristana. She can jump or ult Talon away. Ofc waiting for such things to be on cooldown is what almost every assassin has to be mindful of anyway but for Talon once he is in he is in. There is no out. So either he needs a shorter duration silence somewhere from .25-.5 seconds or he needs some kind of "out" ability.

My suggestion is he be given the ability to Cutthroat a second time for ~2 seconds after the first with no cost. Double instant but targeted blinks.

Orrr have Cutthroat "silence" summoner spells for .5 seconds but not abilities. Would be an effect unique to him and still not carry the 1 second duration of not being able to use summoners. That way more champions will be able to go out knowing they have tools to counterplay Talon but Talon won't have to be guessing if the Summoners are up or not.

Also channel interruption. He needs one :/ Right now his only counterplay to channels is "run away".