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Why was Talon's silence removed?

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Lord Dusteon

Senior Member

10-04-2014

Quote:
Thief of Space:
Mages now in the laning phase can just react to the blink in and probably outplay him like a Viktor dropping his W on his feet right when talon cut's in.

indirect buff to Fizz vs Talon matchup since he can pole the moment talon blinks in and maybe avoid a Rake + Q.

The silence removal feels like it gives the person getting jumped on the ability to instantly stop him from doing anything.

I always run armor yellows on my ap runes and will buy a fast seekers unless im Ryze then I buy a glacial while laning vs Talon.
Isn't the opponent being able to react the point of the change?


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EffectFX

Senior Member

10-04-2014

Quote:
Thief of Space:
Mages now in the laning phase can just react to the blink in and probably outplay him like a Viktor dropping his W on his feet right when talon cut's in.

indirect buff to Fizz vs Talon matchup since he can pole the moment talon blinks in and maybe avoid a Rake + Q.

The silence removal feels like it gives the person getting jumped on the ability to instantly stop him from doing anything.

I always run armor yellows on my ap runes and will buy a fast seekers unless im Ryze then I buy a glacial while laning vs Talon.


So working as intended.


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wolfax

Senior Member

10-04-2014

Quote:
EpicXPlay:
Talon needed his Silence to do move like jump on the jg and counter his gank , or jump on LeBlanc and kill her but now he can't do that because she jumped. Let's talk about his slow, that's nothing . 0,25 that's such a bad thing, even if it's 99% , 0.25 is really bad. Please do something good about Talon, you removed his silence, buff him.


The whole point of removing his silence was to give other champions a chance to do something about his burst. Why is that such a hard concept? That means champions are going to be able to get away now.

Also, the .25 slow is just enough time for one AA (which gets the buff from passive) and his Q is more responsive now. He can therefor pump out more damage faster than he could before.


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PerfidiousAlbion

Senior Member

10-04-2014

Quote:
JustMyBassCannon:
Basically, his silence was guaranteeing that his opponent could not react.

Talon's burst rotation is nearly instant and very high-damage. Prime his Q, E-W-auto-R, whoever you were attacking just got a face full of knives worth over a thousand damage, and they couldn't react for the one second that you were visible.

Removing the Silence means that it's not impossible to react to his damage, which means that players against him don't feel useless for dying instantly to his rotation. Talon players, in turn, are dealing with a downfall because he is (quite obviously) not as powerful.

I don't know if he's fine as is. I'd actually kind of like to see a minor rework, like a Katarina-tier rework where things are shifted around just slightly. Same basic design pattern, but some new flexibility added so he's not a one-and-done rotation.


This is certainly the reasoning, but the argument is reliant on the implication that champions being able to both provide CC, and having the ability to burst you over the duration of that CC, is broken. Only there's quite a few champions that have that capability. And while Talon's CC is targeted (another flawed argument) his forces you into melee while many of the other mid champions who can both CC and burst can do so at higher range, which means the risk for them is considerably lower. Many of those champions also have higher duration CC and/or harder CC.

It's also suggesting that Talon applies his damage almost instantly, after all the silence was only 1sec, but that if you could react during that one second you'd be able to escape. Well if the damage is almost instantaneous then you have almost no chance of escaping regardless. Maybe you can flash, maybe not. But even if you can flash in time then you're, by this reasoning, pretty well doomed at the same because the only way you can escape his instant-death-nearly-fail-proof assault is to have some form of instant escape available, which the vast majority of champions don't have outside of flash, which still leaves you vulnerable most of the time as the cooldown is so long.

Quote:
wolfax:
The whole point of removing his silence was to give other champions a chance to do something about his burst. Why is that such a hard concept? That means champions are going to be able to get away now.

Also, the .25 slow is just enough time for one AA (which gets the buff from passive) and his Q is more responsive now. He can therefor pump out more damage faster than he could before.


Given that he could use his W before AA/Q this hasn't changed his damage at all.


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EffectFX

Senior Member

10-04-2014

Quote:
PerfidiousAlbion:
This is certainly the reasoning, but the argument is reliant on the implication that champions being able to both provide CC, and having the ability to burst you over the duration of that CC, is broken. Only there's quite a few champions that have that capability. And while Talon's CC is targeted (another flawed argument) his forces you into melee while many of the other mid champions who can both CC and burst can do so at higher range, which means the risk for them is considerably lower. Many of those champions also have higher duration CC and/or harder CC.

It's also suggesting that Talon applies his damage almost instantly, after all the silence was only 1sec, but that if you could react during that one second you'd be able to escape. Well if the damage is almost instantaneous then you have almost no chance of escaping regardless. Maybe you can flash, maybe not. But even if you can flash in time then you're, by this reasoning, pretty well doomed at the same because the only way you can escape his instant-death-nearly-fail-proof assault is to have some form of instant escape available, which the vast majority of champions don't have outside of flash, which still leaves you vulnerable most of the time as the cooldown is so long.



Given that he could use his W before AA/Q this hasn't changed his damage at all.



The reasoning is fine. Targeted CC such as stuns and silences and high burst just don't belong in the same kit. Being in melee range isn't a problem if your opponent is dead.

The point is now you have a CHANCE to react to talon jumping on you. It's no longer a guaranteed kill if Talon is snowballing and you happen to be someone nice and squishy. You can do more than use an instant escape, you can CC him, you can exhaust him, you have a number of options that simply were NOT available when he had a silence.


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Brotherhood

Senior Member

10-04-2014

i hate people complaining about no counter play he is meant to be an antimage assassin its what he does build a bruiser and kill him or heck go any right click to win champ also they leave the hard to counter cc not the short easy to wait out scilences...


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EffectFX

Senior Member

10-04-2014

Quote:
Brotherhood:
i hate people complaining about no counter play he is meant to be an antimage assassin its what he does build a bruiser and kill him or heck go any right click to win champ also they leave the hard to counter cc not the short easy to wait out scilences...


Except he just wasn't killing mages. A talon who was fed could delete supports and ADCs or anyone who didn't stack health and armor and their was very little they could do about it. Targeted CC and burst do not belong on the same champion.


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UncensoredAngel

Member

10-04-2014

you shouldn't be able to dual an assassin or get out if he gets the jump on you, ASSASSIN! don't think game balance think ASSASSIN, assassins don't fight they get in kill and get out there should be no mess if an assassin kills his target with less than 75% health hes a bad assassin "player" or wasn't well equipped "under lvl/not fed" or tools "skills" talon now doesn't have tools and so now he doesn't have the means to kill without making a ruckus and getting his !@#$%^&* beat in the proses "MAY VERY", Talon was a good assassin because he had his silence he sucked in team fights with hard cc but he could 1v1, zed had his mobility but cc could again take him out so 1v1 duals could go both ways. talon now dosnt have his silence so if he tried to lets say jump on a malz, kat, heim, other mid lanes he can get cc ulted or zhonyad without getting his full combo off.
Riot if you are going to nerf assassins so they cant do there job pls take them out of the game or re-name them to none tanky fighters


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EffectFX

Senior Member

10-04-2014

Quote:
UncensoredAngel:
bleh


No champion should ever have a 100% chance to kill someone without a very specific set of circumstances happening.


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UncensoredAngel

Member

10-04-2014

A Assassin sneak attacking a mage,assassin,adc, if there alone they should be dead, If they can live to tell the tail than this assassins tails probably suck.

Its common sense that an assassin should be able to kill his target without fuss