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Why people *****ing about Soraka's new kit are idiots.

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Aggrothis

Member

10-03-2014

While im not sure about silencing Morgana during her ult, I know for certain that silencing fiddles will do nothing to him once he finished his channeling. Also, don't forget Soraka was modeled as a support. You cant use your #6 point to reflect a support Soraka build to an AP soraka build. While true you can benefit from frost queen now every 5 seconds as opposed to every 8 seconds, but you still want to have a support build if playing as a support. The Talisman (yellow ball gp5 item) does far better than frost queen as a support role than the F. queen. A MS buff, 20% CDR, Hp 5, MP 5 and 4 or 5 gold per minion death. It has everything a Soraka support could use. Unless you just making it as an additional mage in which case, it could have been done with the old soraka as well. Im not saying her new kit is bad, but it definitely could use tweaking.


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Adrian Umbra

Recruiter

10-03-2014

Quote:
Aggrothis:
While im not sure about silencing Morgana during her ult, I know for certain that silencing fiddles will do nothing to him once he finished his channeling. Also, don't forget Soraka was modeled as a support. You cant use your #6 point to reflect a support Soraka build to an AP soraka build. While true you can benefit from frost queen now every 5 seconds as opposed to every 8 seconds, but you still want to have a support build if playing as a support. The Talisman (yellow ball gp5 item) does far better than frost queen as a support role than the F. queen. A MS buff, 20% CDR, Hp 5, MP 5 and 4 or 5 gold per minion death. It has everything a Soraka support could use. Unless you just making it as an additional mage in which case, it could have been done with the old soraka as well. Im not saying her new kit is bad, but it definitely could use tweaking.

Silencing Morgana did nothing during her ult since it's not a channel. Same reasoning as Fiddle and why she can use Zhonya's during it. Building FQC is also a choice to go for a more aggressive mage support style build rather than a more passive or tanky style support. Your gold gain with FQC is potentially higher, as is your damage.

And if she needs tweaking, what would you like to see done?


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destiny fan

Member

10-03-2014

I'd say she needs minor tweaking, overall i'm happy with the rework

i feel like her E needs a reduced silence duration and a faster snaring, W needs the %HP reduced a bit, 10% its a bit too much

however i'll miss the old soraka, she was the first support i played, and the one that taught me the ropes of supporting.


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Aggrothis

Member

10-03-2014

I dont know what could be done without actual field testing. But a possible tweaks can be:

Q: The time it takes to land is understandable now. Closer the faster while the further the longer. However, the the AoE for the slow is pretty small and easily dodged even if unintentional. have instead a 5-10% slow for the outer layer while keeping it to how it is for the small AoE.

W: Decrease the HP loss or change from maximum HP to current HP. This will open up build paths so she wouldn't be so cookie cutter. The More Health she has the more it would cost but the higher her maximum hp is, the more Ws she can cast and not just be a "one hit wonder". It is possible that this is why they did max instead of current, but in place you can increase the base cd by 1 seconds. This is the hardest one to tweak without live results to fit Riots agenda on heals. Btw her range could definitely be increased but cant tell how much since i cant see how the HP is being affected in live action.

E: A decent spell with a large AoE but the secondary is lacking. A very powerful version would be to make it a field where the enemy (all players and minions, not neutrals) cannot perform any form of attack with a max duration of 2 seconds. It maintains it silence effect but also prevents auto attacks. The CD can be increased by a 1 second and the lacking root can still be lacking but the spell itself would be extremely useful in all phases of the game. Or one in more aligned to what we have now would be to decrease the amount of time the AoE is in effect thus decreasing the time it takes for the root to root the enemy. Not to much, like perhaps 1.5 seconds. the actual AoE would last up to 2.5 seconds but the root effect will take only 1.5 seconds from the moment it was casted. The AoE should start smaller in size and increases as you level it up. With Fake numbers since I dont know how large is a yard in the game environment, I will set an example. At lvl 1 it starts at 1 yard, lvl 2 it goes to 2 yards at level 3it becomes 3 at 4 it is what it is now and at lvl 5 it would now be 5 yards. this would give another reason to increase E passed lvl 1.

Her R, leave it alone.

Her passive...I don't like it. I think the range is rather small for what they want it to do and the way it works is horrible. If Soraka is facing the target, she gains her movement buff but while she is on her way there, if she take a left turn her MS is removed until she is facing the target once more. Instead, I think the buff should continue as long as her end destination is at the targets location. So if i click at the champion i maintain my MS buff until i change my target location away from the target ally. As it is now, if im traveling through the jungle and i get in range for my passive, there are points in my journey where she will stop the MS buff because she is no longer facing the target ally and would not regain it until she faces it again.

This is something that i could consider but without any real testing i can't tell if it would be overpowered or just about right or what. With the exception of her E silencing and preventing all forms of attacks from the opposing team. Too many applications and a complete game changer. But I could dream lol. Not to mention I know for certain nothing listed above would be considered but I only did it for fun.


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Adrian Umbra

Recruiter

10-03-2014

Quote:
Aggrothis:
I dont know what could be done without actual field testing. But a possible tweaks can be:

Q: The time it takes to land is understandable now. Closer the faster while the further the longer. However, the the AoE for the slow is pretty small and easily dodged even if unintentional. have instead a 5-10% slow for the outer layer while keeping it to how it is for the small AoE.

W: Decrease the HP loss or change from maximum HP to current HP. This will open up build paths so she wouldn't be so cookie cutter. The More Health she has the more it would cost but the higher her maximum hp is, the more Ws she can cast and not just be a "one hit wonder". It is possible that this is why they did max instead of current, but in place you can increase the base cd by 1 seconds. This is the hardest one to tweak without live results to fit Riots agenda on heals. Btw her range could definitely be increased but cant tell how much since i cant see how the HP is being affected in live action.

E: A decent spell with a large AoE but the secondary is lacking. A very powerful version would be to make it a field where the enemy (all players and minions, not neutrals) cannot perform any form of attack with a max duration of 2 seconds. It maintains it silence effect but also prevents auto attacks. The CD can be increased by a 1 second and the lacking root can still be lacking but the spell itself would be extremely useful in all phases of the game. Or one in more aligned to what we have now would be to decrease the amount of time the AoE is in effect thus decreasing the time it takes for the root to root the enemy. Not to much, like perhaps 1.5 seconds. the actual AoE would last up to 2.5 seconds but the root effect will take only 1.5 seconds from the moment it was casted. The AoE should start smaller in size and increases as you level it up. With Fake numbers since I dont know how large is a yard in the game environment, I will set an example. At lvl 1 it starts at 1 yard, lvl 2 it goes to 2 yards at level 3it becomes 3 at 4 it is what it is now and at lvl 5 it would now be 5 yards. this would give another reason to increase E passed lvl 1.

Her R, leave it alone.

Her passive...I don't like it. I think the range is rather small for what they want it to do and the way it works is horrible. If Soraka is facing the target, she gains her movement buff but while she is on her way there, if she take a left turn her MS is removed until she is facing the target once more. Instead, I think the buff should continue as long as her end destination is at the targets location. So if i click at the champion i maintain my MS buff until i change my target location away from the target ally. As it is now, if im traveling through the jungle and i get in range for my passive, there are points in my journey where she will stop the MS buff because she is no longer facing the target ally and would not regain it until she faces it again.

This is something that i could consider but without any real testing i can't tell if it would be overpowered or just about right or what. With the exception of her E silencing and preventing all forms of attacks from the opposing team. Too many applications and a complete game changer. But I could dream lol. Not to mention I know for certain nothing listed above would be considered but I only did it for fun.

I can get behind the Q change and we'll have to see about the W change, if Riot feels she needs drastic changes then W would likely be the first change.

The change to her E would be absolutely ridiculous. A long lasting AoE silence is strong enough, a long lasting AoE silence+blind is INSANE. My personal opinion is that this particular ability is fine as is, though tweaks to the CD and damages may be forthcoming.

As for her passive, I feel that the range is a little low and that she could use some persistence in the buff (lasts for an additional .5-1 seconds after moving out of direct line of travel) to deal with corners in the jungle, but having it be based on destination is probably not a good idea. Autopathing being what it is, this could lead to some really bad situations.

But thank you for your thoughts, we'll have to see what ends up happening.


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Aggrothis

Member

10-03-2014

Quote:
Adrian Umbra:

The change to her E would be absolutely ridiculous. A long lasting AoE silence is strong enough, a long lasting AoE silence+blind is INSANE. My personal opinion is that this particular ability is fine as is, though tweaks to the CD and damages may be forthcoming.


Hence the dream lol. Figured I'll have fun with that one.


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Arrion

Member

10-03-2014

Quote:
Aggrothis:
While im not sure about silencing Morgana during her ult, I know for certain that silencing fiddles will do nothing to him once he finished his channeling. Also, don't forget Soraka was modeled as a support. You cant use your #6 point to reflect a support Soraka build to an AP soraka build. While true you can benefit from frost queen now every 5 seconds as opposed to every 8 seconds, but you still want to have a support build if playing as a support. The Talisman (yellow ball gp5 item) does far better than frost queen as a support role than the F. queen. A MS buff, 20% CDR, Hp 5, MP 5 and 4 or 5 gold per minion death. It has everything a Soraka support could use. Unless you just making it as an additional mage in which case, it could have been done with the old soraka as well. Im not saying her new kit is bad, but it definitely could use tweaking.


You're going to sit here and tell me that applying a slow or stun, to an enemy champ, especially their snowballed assassin or ADC, to land your snare, and starcall is not being a support? The reason I added starcall into this example is basically your self heal now. So if you want to sustain yourself, so you can sustain your team, you need to be more aggressive. And yes an AP build is far more viable now as her heal does benefit a rather good bit from AP, both active and passive(Starcall) heals work nicely with AP. So honestly at this point, if you're not building some minor amount of AP, instead of going the full support item route, you're really hurting yourself.


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Aggrothis

Member

10-03-2014

Landing a slow to root in order to either set up a kill or prevent a death is a support. However, in order to land a slow you need to hit the enemy dead center (which will almost never happen against an assassin) and force them to stay in your E for 1.75 seconds. Soraka doesnt have a stun only a possible slow and a possible root. Unless you use exhaust which I won't consider that since its not part of the kit.

The same could be said about old soraka. Her heals and armor buff were dependant on her AP. Any soraka who did not build AP items were missing out. A support soraka build would have 3 main items being boots, gp5 and sight stone. From there they can branch out to what the team needed as well as what they needed. This new soraka's support build is similar to the 3 main items, plus a Spirit visage to counter the hp loss from W and a Zhonya to get some defense and AP. The only real open item is the 6th slot. Of course you can leave out SV and ZH but then what would be taken? A deathcap or DFG? going full AP? Sure could work , I wont say it wouldn't. But how expensive is that build compared to the one im proposing. Supports dont make as much gold as the others unless the game is one sided.


On avg, a support build would give about 200 AP or so, 30% cdr (remaining cdr should come from talents unless the talents are different in which case 35 to 40% cdr required), items to buff allies and provide vision. My ideal build for her now no matter the game (for the most part):

boots (+3 or +105), Talisman (gp5),Sightstone, Spirit Visage, Zhonya and twin shadows. twin shadows not only gives me the position of the closest 2 enemies but also slows them down for my Q/E (E/Q) combo. A support build that gives me AP and support items. Before you did not need the SV or zhonya and could get your AP from other items like rylai and even the upgraded tear item that gave AP. So you could essentially get more than 250 ap. Of course, this all depends on your playstyle. As i know quite alot of supports that dont even bother buying a sightstone. So all to their own.


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Gareth Tankin

Senior Member

10-03-2014

@Adrian Umbra

Not doing it right?
So because in most matchups you don't start hp5 items (coin or rej beads) along with the hp5 quints, or you burn through you're mana trying to poke with starcall too much or are harrassed too much... I'm not doing it right?
I can easily top off the adc's health bar trade after trade, F*ck up after F*ck up, early on.
Every adc I've played with, every enemy I've talked to in lane said it's ****ing obnoxious.

I only brought up the new skillfloor as an issue because old Soraka was the furthest thing from it. In this case, it seems that them completely changing the skillbase of Soraka is kinda jarring and will probably make allot of people think the rework is just bad. She is and from her purple bar, still is supposed to be, a lower difficulty champ. People pick her up, people try her out, she ends up being frustrating and useless... people think she is a frustrating and useless champion instead of realizing she is just hard to get used to.
I'm saying she would have ended up being far more popular and the rework would have been much better received if that wasn't the case.

and really?
I have to turn an already long post, one that people will attack because they skim and don't understand, I have to make that even more convoluted and attackable by tacking on lists of suggestions... I have to do that or I am whining??
Come on man... chill out.

If you want my suggestions, just ask, it's that easy.
<3

---------------------------------
@SirLapse
You quoted my post but what you said kinda doesn't... actually at all.. address any of the points I was making...

Higher skill caps are cool?
Read the 4th sentence of that post you quoted.

Sure high difficulty /= bad.
But that never was in question...
All I was saying was that switching an easy to pick up and play champion to be hard (not skill cap but skill floor), isn't the best of ideas.
I explained it more in full earlier in this post, second paragraph.


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SirLapse

Senior Member

10-03-2014

Quote:
Gareth Tankin:

@SirLapse
You quoted my post but what you said kinda doesn't... actually at all.. address any of the points I was making...

Higher skill caps are cool?
Read the 4th sentence of that post you quoted.

Sure high difficulty /= bad.
But that never was in question...
All I was saying was that switching an easy to pick up and play champion to be hard (not skill cap but skill floor), isn't the best of ideas.
I explained it more in full earlier in this post, second paragraph.


You were blatantly acting as if her skill floor getting higher was a bad thing. Saying "not the best change" can either imply that it's good and could be better, or you think it's bad. You gave no hint of thinking for the former at all.

Not to mention that you're saying your play experience does not match what the community would want because it does not match what you would want. Are you asking me to somehow assist in making a discussion with that form of speech? I don't speak kiss***. No offense.