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Ardent Censer and Twin Shadows

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Meowington

Member

10-01-2014

Hey guys, first post here and I'll try to keep it relatively short. I'm a support main player and was thinking about a couple changes the other day. As it stands, Ardent Censer is garbage. You should almost never buy this item. When I say *almost* never, the only time I would buy it is if my team was literally 4 AD champions who benefit from attack speed like an ADC, Yasuo mid, Trynd top and Yi jungle (realistically this comp would not get picked at any decent ELO).

At first I always thought about reducing the cost or changing the attack speed somehow. Either giving more AS or making it apply to champions through an active or something... but I came up with something even better thanks to looking at Twin Shadows.

Currently Ardent Censer builds out of Forbidden Idol (700g) and Aether Wisp (950g) totaling 1650g. Then you pay another 550g (2200g in total) to finish the item. The stats you receive are 40 AP, 10 mana per 5, 10% CDR, 8% movement speed and a Unique Passive: Your heals and shields on another unit grant them +25% Attack Speed for 6 seconds.

My idea was, scrap Forbidden Idol and instead make it build out of Fiendish Codex. So then it would become Fiendish Codex (820g) and Aether Wisp (950g) totaling to 1770g. Then pay 530g (2300g in total). The stats you would receive would then be 80 AP, 10% CDR, 8% movement speed and the same unique passive (possibly even buffing it to 30%?).

So you'd be spending 100g more, but gaining 40 more AP and losing 10 mp5. This might make it strong enough to actually consider buying.

Then my other idea I had with Twin Shadows is to reduce the cost from 2400g down to 2300g so it would be the counterpart to Ardent Censer. Both items would build out of the same components, but into different items depending on what you need. Twin Shadows gives 80 AP, 10% CDR, 6% Movement Speed and the Unique Active: Summons up to 2 invulnerable ghosts that seek out the 2 nearest enemy champions for 6 seconds. If a ghost reaches its target, it reveals the target and reduces their Movement Speed by 40% for 2.5 seconds.

So Ardent Censer then becomes the options you take if you want more AS to help your team/ADC deal more damage and Twin Shadows is the option you take if you want more disengage and pseudo-engage/chase potential.


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KMannnnn1

Senior Member

10-01-2014

I don't like the idea of having 2 items give virtually identical stats, just as a general rule.

Then there's the design of the item. It's best used on champions with low-cooldown, low cost heal/shield spells like sona, alistar, and janna, and the combination of cdr and mp5 is made to support that. While supports are hardly wanting for strong mana sustain items, removing the mp5 sort of muddies the identity of the item, especially when replaced with AP. Giving more AP to a support item is basically saying "deal more damage by yourself," where the item is meant to augment the damage of your allies that benefit from attack speed through the passive.

Plus, if the spooky ghosts are meant to be the stronger chase/engage option, it's a bit awkward that they give less movespeed. Not a problem, just a bit of a headscratcher.

All that to say, I like the idea of ardent censer, it's just that supports already have a wide arsenal of amazing utility items, and a small attack speed buff tied to heals and shields just isn't as appealing.


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Meowington

Member

10-01-2014

Quote:
KMannnnn1:
I don't like the idea of having 2 items give virtually identical stats, just as a general rule.

Then there's the design of the item. It's best used on champions with low-cooldown, low cost heal/shield spells like sona, alistar, and janna, and the combination of cdr and mp5 is made to support that. While supports are hardly wanting for strong mana sustain items, removing the mp5 sort of muddies the identity of the item, especially when replaced with AP. Giving more AP to a support item is basically saying "deal more damage by yourself," where the item is meant to augment the damage of your allies that benefit from attack speed through the passive.

Plus, if the spooky ghosts are meant to be the stronger chase/engage option, it's a bit awkward that they give less movespeed. Not a problem, just a bit of a headscratcher.

All that to say, I like the idea of ardent censer, it's just that supports already have a wide arsenal of amazing utility items, and a small attack speed buff tied to heals and shields just isn't as appealing.


I'll agree that it's a bit iffy to have them be so similar in terms of stats, but I honestly don't see another way to making Ardent Censer appealing and I feel like it has the potential of being a thought about support item instead of forgotten and never bought except by people who don't realize how bad it is.

As far as the MS goes, you could always swap it around. You can low Ardent's MS to 5% and make Twin Shadow's MS 8%. The AP boost on it is also not just for "dealing more damage" but because supports scale off of AP. Sure, it does add damage to them, but it also adds more to their heals and shields.


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KMannnnn1

Senior Member

10-01-2014

Well, if your goal is to make ardent censer more attractive, the best way would be to increase the impact of the attack speed buff. To that end, the only real way to accomplish it is to increase the magnitude of the buff or to increase the duration. It can already have 100% uptime on a lot of champions, and it still isn't picked up, so the magnitude has to be increased.

So with that in mind, the new and improved AC would either have a permanent 30-40% attack speed buff to nearby allies (potentially broken in the correct team comp) or to have a high-impact, short-duration buff, most likely as an active.


Maybe something like a decently sized shield (150-400 scaling with level?) that grants 50% AS until the shield breaks, making the item both allow protection to an ADC if they're in a bad spot and an increase their damage output if they position well and have decent peel. Numbers are rough, but I could definitely see myself picking something like this up if I had a low-mobility ADC on my team.


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Meowington

Member

10-01-2014

Quote:
KMannnnn1:
Maybe something like a decently sized shield (150-400 scaling with level?) that grants 50% AS until the shield breaks, making the item both allow protection to an ADC if they're in a bad spot and an increase their damage output if they position well and have decent peel. Numbers are rough, but I could definitely see myself picking something like this up if I had a low-mobility ADC on my team.


Interesting... I never thought about something like that. The problem I see with this though is that it will become a must buy if the shield is any decent (which it will need to be to not have it be useless). Because it'll be a caster version of Face of the Mountain. Imagine a Thresh with lantern shield, Face of the Mountain, Locket and Ardent shield on a carry? You're looking at 1k HP not including a Mikael's heal.

That's why I was saying to put more AP on it, because it buffs it in a way that it's not too overpowered while not being too weak either and it won't become a must buy on tanks. Overall, the item should probably be scrapped and re-made entirely without the AS buff because it's too hard to balance properly. It's either too strong or too weak.


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FantasySniper

Senior Member

10-01-2014

Ardent Censer gives an average of 1 more AA over its duration. Mages that aren't packing any AA scaling won't get more than ~50 damage, which matters less and less as you get farther into the game, but some champions can get ~600 damage at least all by themselves with a single AA before taking into account resistances, that's a huge benefit people just refuse to see. (Not to mention Attack-Move) It's also uber-useful in taking objectives since you're providing bonus offensive power on top of whatever your spell effects were.

The only buff they could allow without it being too powerful or losing sight of its goal is a small scaling from AP on the AS buff. I'm talking like 1-3% scaling, since most supports that would bother to use it might never even get past 200 AP, you don't want to encourage even more getting into their builds for the sake of it.


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Starcall

Junior Member

10-03-2014

I actually only buy it on Janna when my sole carry is adc. And not when I have 4 ad. When you have 4 ad Zeke is better. Ardent is pretty good on Janna when your adc is the one ad on the team. The ap makes your shield give more ad and your shield should always be on adc in fights 100% up time.


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