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Aatrox could use some love (under construction)

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SirLapse

Senior Member

09-30-2014

Quote:
Sleeper Cell:
I think you could place a flat cooldown reduction on hit onto Blood Price to add even more incentive to sacrifice your health instead of sitting on Blood Thirst all day.

And I agree with a Dark Flight radius increase. I personally think both the knockup radius and damage radius should increase with level so at level 5 the level 1 damage radius would be the knockup radius. Something like that. Maybe not as drastically large lol. Maybe 75% of what the level 1 radius is.


I think being able to recover from Blood Price means a lot more.

Potentially it could function like "Blood Price deals +xx damage and heals Aatrox based on how full his Blood Well is (capped at the cost Aatrox paid for Blood Price strikes)." Something like that. His Blood Thirst at this point is non-situational and doesn't require Blood Well at all to use. They could really buff the heal on it if it actually consumed Blood Well, similar to Tryndamere's current Q (ironically).


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EffectFX

Senior Member

10-01-2014

Quote:
SirLapse:
Then why would he have his Blood Well attack speed nerfed? Combined with his W early game, all you had to do was poke with E like normal and then rush in with Q>Blood Priced AA's. That was usually enough to break mostly everyone at lv3. Nerfing his attack speed is literally the same as nerfing his W.

At current decay for Aatrox's kit, he would lose 25% attack speed when his passive is nearly capped. That's not his early game where he can only get around 35-40% from his passive. If he is being affected by such small incremental boosts of his passive, then there is more to what is wrong with him than the Blood Well itself.

You also tend to make short responses without much substance to the point you're trying to make. It makes whatever you're saying seem heavily unsupported. Just saying.


They nerfed his attack speed because 50% attack speed is a lot of attack speed for free. They wanted to him to not be quite so strong in the early game. Nerfing his attack speed from his passive indirectly affects his W, yes. But his W still remains untouched.

No, his decay is the issue. That's not a discussion. He's so reliant on having a full bloodwell, that if you can simply zone him from CS, he can't sustain, nor can he keep it anywhere remotely close to capped because it begins to decay a couple of seconds after you hit something and it decays FAST.

Aatroxs early game kit, even with his passive losing a lot of attack speed is still strong against several match ups.

Short responses are all that's needed on the subject.


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SirLapse

Senior Member

10-01-2014

Quote:
EffectFX:
They nerfed his attack speed because 50% attack speed is a lot of attack speed for free. They wanted to him to not be quite so strong in the early game. Nerfing his attack speed from his passive indirectly affects his W, yes. But his W still remains untouched.

No, his decay is the issue. That's not a discussion. He's so reliant on having a full bloodwell, that if you can simply zone him from CS, he can't sustain, nor can he keep it anywhere remotely close to capped because it begins to decay a couple of seconds after you hit something and it decays FAST.

Aatroxs early game kit, even with his passive losing a lot of attack speed is still strong against several match ups.

Short responses are all that's needed on the subject.


Strong only in the sense of the laning phase. And even then, every common top laner right now scales well into late game, something Aatrox does not do.

I've already stated it before though; if small increments of attack speed ever cause a champion to lose such a high amount of effectiveness (with the inclusion of items to assist said champion), then the problem is much bigger than what you're imagining in your head. I've played Aatrox too.

The toxicity of his W is simply how much he can sustain in the early game. He can always choose to max it first too. The bonus attack speed after he filled up Blood Well with E (because every Aatrox player eventually learns to do this) leads to him using a punishing wave of Q + Blood Price AA. Add on Ignite, and it pretty much forces someone off the lane for a good while if it didn't already kill them.

Then there's the next issue of his late game being horrible due to a huge fall-off. His Blood Thirst heals are based off of the first 6-10 levels of the game where it is strongest, so it falls off extremely quickly afterward. E turns into a soft CC rather than damaging skill. Q turns into hard CC for your team. All of this basically does not focus on damage so he is extremely lackluster compared to anyone else who has a hard CC + soft CC (which means a lot of tanks). This of course is only stopped if you end the game early, which depends on your team and not yourself.

There's much more to Aatrox's problems than just his inconsistency of Blood Well. Every time you'd say "if only I had more attack speed," it would only amount to Blood Well's older form which was really freakin' strong but didn't have any "decay issues."

That "decay issue" is a result of toning down his passive's older form and exists so that he's not always healing a huge amount from Blood Well. The attack speed was just hurt worse than expected, but they can't really do anything about it because of the balancing that already exists on Blood Well's heal on revive.


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EffectFX

Senior Member

10-01-2014

He doesn't scale any worse than Renekton.

Losing the AS didn't hurt him as much as the nerf to his E. He needs bloodwell full for addional reasons outside attack speed.

High sustain can be toxic yes. Hence why his HP/Regent have fairly low base stats.

I have never had issues with "huge" falloff". The exceptions are against teams with enormous wave clear making it difficult to group and siege bases (decay rate once again. He does fall off some yes. But he's still a damage threat to squishes or a decent makeshift peeler or initiator.

His bloodwell is more than bonus AS.

Increase time before blood well decays or decrease the decay rate and Aatrox will be so much better without needing any buffs to damage or other stats.


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justasmiff

Junior Member

10-01-2014

Quote:
justasmiff:

Q: Dark Flight
-Radius of Darkflight (both damage and knockup) increased by 10%

E: Blades of Torment
-Basic attacks now reduce the cooldown by .5 seconds

W: Bloodthirst/Bloodprice
-Applies 1/3 the selfheal/damage every auto-attack instead
of every third auto-attacke enemy. Please add your opinion on if this is a good, bad, or op change.


His problem come late game is his lack of three things: In-fight sustain if focused, engage potential, and peel utility. The reason for this is because he can only proc his self-heal every 3rd AA, meaning if he's cced its much harder for him to heal, he only has 1 form of hard CC with a very small radius, making it hard to land on multiple units, and he has a slow, but its on a relatively long cooldown, meaning he can't peel/chase down people without difficulty. These changes will give some assistance in the areas that he needs to be a decent teamfighter with some amount of kill, engage, and peel potential.


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SirLapse

Senior Member

10-01-2014

Quote:
EffectFX:
He doesn't scale any worse than Renekton.

Losing the AS didn't hurt him as much as the nerf to his E. He needs bloodwell full for addional reasons outside attack speed.

High sustain can be toxic yes. Hence why his HP/Regent have fairly low base stats.

I have never had issues with "huge" falloff". The exceptions are against teams with enormous wave clear making it difficult to group and siege bases (decay rate once again. He does fall off some yes. But he's still a damage threat to squishes or a decent makeshift peeler or initiator.

His bloodwell is more than bonus AS.

Increase time before blood well decays or decrease the decay rate and Aatrox will be so much better without needing any buffs to damage or other stats.


Renekton's sustain is heavily consistent. Not to mention a boost mechanic if he attacks enough. Considering Renekton can AoE on his Q, he can 1v2 better than Aatrox and is thus less susceptible to ganks.

But I don't know what you mean by "His Blood Well is more than bonus AS." That's all it is to me. Just played him again and that's how it stayed. People were killing me if I had no peel, even the person I was winning lane against, the very point I was speaking of.

Blood Well's eventual drop during mid-late are about 0.01 attack speed for around every 6% or so (estimating here). Those minimal drops are meaningless for the point you're trying to argue. All that's left for it is bonus HP for when you die.

justasmiff, I agree with the W change and the Q change. But E does not need more enhancers, I assure you of that. It's his bread and butter to whittle down his opponent in lane before he Q's in.


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EffectFX

Senior Member

10-01-2014

Aatrox sustain is no less consistent until you fall behind. Aatrox 1v2 isn't terrible if he plays his cards right. He also has better ganked setup and early tower dives and none if this has anything to do with fall off.

Aatrox HP on revive is based on how much of the well is full. It happens to be fairly important. You're doing something wrong.

That bonus HP is pretty important on revive. As far as the decay rate goes. It's several times higher than your estimate. Blood well drains at 2% per second. Which at level 1 is .6 (18 times higher than your estimate) AS lost a second. Late game he loses 1.1 (33 times higher than your estimate) AS a second. Hardly minimal drops.


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SirLapse

Senior Member

10-01-2014

Quote:
EffectFX:
Aatrox sustain is no less consistent until you fall behind. Aatrox 1v2 isn't terrible if he plays his cards right. He also has better ganked setup and early tower dives and none if this has anything to do with fall off.

Aatrox HP on revive is based on how much of the well is full. It happens to be fairly important. You're doing something wrong.

That bonus HP is pretty important on revive. As far as the decay rate goes. It's several times higher than your estimate. Blood well drains at 2% per second. Which at level 1 is .6 AS lost a second. Late game he loses 1.1 AS a second. Hardly minimal drops.


Pretty minimal to me. I didn't give one care in the world about my attack speed aside from BotRK. And I was usually dead as I revived due to a nice follow-up by my opponent. The only time it ever "saved" me was in lane where it was 1v1 or my team was there to collapse on the poor people who focused me.

And you seem to not understand how his passive works. He loses 1.1% attack speed per second. And that's when your passive is capped. Extremely insignificant unless your Blood Well is dam well near empty.

I only care about tower dives when the passive is actually up, that's the only time Blood Well ever matters to me. And against champions like Jax and Fiora who can punish you for doing so, it's not exactly the best decision to turret dive anyway. You got balls trying to tell me that I'm playing a champion wrong when purely talking about his weaknesses.


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EffectFX

Senior Member

10-01-2014

You're making bad plays then the revive is an incredibly valuable tool.

And you seem to not realize that's exactly what I said. Though it's always 1.1 AS for every 2% of the well regardless of whether it's full or empty.

You have to choose the right moments to tower dive. Don't just dive because you can. You are playing him wrong.


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SirLapse

Senior Member

10-01-2014

Quote:
EffectFX:
You're making bad plays then the revive is an incredibly valuable tool.

And you seem to not realize that's exactly what I said. Though it's always 1.1 AS for every 2% of the well regardless of whether it's full or empty.

You have to choose the right moments to tower dive. Don't just dive because you can. You are playing him wrong.


AHAHAHAHAHAHA. Good one.

You know you don't need to play the champion to its full effectiveness to know the limitations of the champion. But how you use him and how I use him will always be different.

The 0.01 I was referring to was the actual actual attack speed numbers. The one that caps at 2.5. So yes, extremely insignificant. Unless you're basically telling me that attack speed less than marks actually matter enough to make a champion do exponentially less. Which is outrageous any way you try to spin it.

I know you like Aatrox but you have to acknowledge that he has problems aside from a minimal attack speed boost.