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Help with wits end on sion

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GaugeForever

Senior Member

09-30-2014

So I just got removed from a friends list. The reason was because using a wits end on Sion is a no-brainer bad decision.

I tried explaining my logic for wanting to try it. Firstly, Sion farms HP, so I figured I could get my Armor and MR for free with other stats. Second, my E does extra dmg when I hit with it, as well as farming hp when you kill.

My logic was to get wits end third item (jungle item and boots first). This would allow me to farm faster, and do more dmg faster with my E, as well as the wits end magic dmg.

So can someone who is really good at explaining things inform me why this is a no-brainer bad decision? To me it seems like I get my MR for free with bonus dmg and atk speed. I also get to farm HP faster. It is also a relatively low cost item.

He suggested a trinity force.


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KMannnnn1

Senior Member

09-30-2014

Wits end wouldn't be a terrible item by any means. Are there better items? Probably, but wits end still had its place in the game, and your logic for using it is fairly sound. Someone removing you as a friend for an item build is flat out ridiculous, and you shouldn't pay any mind to that sort of thing.


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Delioth

Member

09-30-2014

Honestly, I'd say don't worry about it; if you had someone who would take you off their friends list for a single instance of doing something a way they didn't like, then you're better off without them.
And Sion's got a big (AWESOME) relaunch coming relatively Soon™.

But for now, yeah, tf isn't incredible on sion, but it is incredibly efficient because he can actually use everything on it- and movespeed+rage are fantastic for him- It's good, but it doesn't provide the stats to stack up to really high for Sion. But if you would go SotAG, then you'd just want to go with like swiftness boots and a frozen mallet for your kiting (Protection)- 875 hp on a mallet is pretty intense, and getting 25% extra stacks for your e is nice. (They reworked that from his kit too; the hp gain is on his w, doesn't scale with level, but is always on. He also doesn't have his massive AD steroid anymore, and his giant lifesteal spike comes after he dies.


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67chrome

Senior Member

09-30-2014

Quote:
GaugeForever:
So can someone who is really good at explaining things inform me why this is a no-brainer bad decision?

He suggested a trinity force.



Wit's End is mostly a bruiser item, and Sion, until his re-launch, is really best played as a glass-cannon using his overbearing steroids in tandem with stuff like Hydra or Crit to drain-tank an entire team if left to his own devices.

Sion scales absurdly well with offense, seeing as his 65 AD steroid, 50% AS steroid, and 100% life steal steroid are arguably the strongest pairing of auto-attack steroids in the entire game.


Wit's End doesn't scale damage incredibly well. The magic on-hit damage cannot critically strike, it does not gain anything from life steal. It's sort of a free chunk of armor pen early on - but if you get something like Last Whisper and you're a late-game champion, not scaling with armor pen is also a bit of a minus.

It does offer a considerable chunk of power early-on due to it's lacking end-game scaling, being more cost-effective than something like Infinity Edge gold for gold on you're 1 major item %DPS scaling - which is why I said Bruiser item earlier.
Offense and Defense technically scale one-another's power, so you scale pretty solidly into end-game with building full tank after an item like Wit's End. Other examples of ~hybridized damage with flat values and weak end-game scaling (in full offense builds) are Trinity Force, Blade of the Ruined King, Feral Flare, and Spirit of the Lizard Eldar.

That isn't to say you shouldn't avoid all of them on a late-game monster, champions with a weak early game like Vayne, Master Yi, and especially Sion can grab one of those to be relevant early/mid game without needing to fear being completely useless until you get that Infinity Edge + Phantom Dancer combo.
Generally speaking you should never get 2 of those bruiser items due to tanking your scaling, offensive or defensive, fairly hard - though Wriggle's + Wit's End is cheap enough and actually synergizes well enough together that combo is ok.


I'd probably recommend Statik Shiv or Tiamat for Sion farming stacks instead, but to each his own.

--------

As to your friend though - TriForce fullfills largely the same roll as Wit's End, and if he removed you from his friends list - he's probably not someone you should lament loosing.


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Rawrful

Senior Member

09-30-2014

The logic is pretty simple. Your E doesn't 'make your attacks do more damage' it adds attack damage. Which is a HUGE difference. Because the added AD can crit, and you can Lifesteal off of AD, but not magic damage on hit. Also, splitting your damage between magic (Wit's End) and physical makes it so you can't itemize penetration. That said, Wit's End isn't the worst item to buy. It just doesn't go well with AD Sion, who's entire gimmick is dealing HUGE physical damage with more than 100% Lifesteal so you can't die.

The problem here though is that you were jungling Sion. I can't imagine how you would clear camps early with any measure of speed, let alone how you would jungle without a Blue. And you would gain HP soooo sllooowwwlllyyy farming jungle camps. If you were playing him super-ganky (Rush mobi boots, stun people in the face) I could kind of see it working like a Shaco. Poor clear, but amazing ganks. Anyways, I would 100% rush Hydra (Starting with Tiamat), because it would let him clear camps a thousand times faster, and it is just a brutally good item on AD Sion anyways.

Soo, yeah. I just don't see why you would play Sion in the jungle, rather than top. Until the remake comes out. Then I have no idea.


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GaugeForever

Senior Member

09-30-2014

Thanks guys! Very informative.


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