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The problem with essence reaver

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Melvear

Senior Member

09-29-2014

Quote:
JustMyBassCannon:
So, basically, Lifesteal Scepter, but with Reaver's effect instead of Lifesteal.

Or, we could just put MP5 on Essence Reaver like the OP is suggesting, by adding Forbidden Idol to the build like 5lacker said. Because that fixes the two main problem with the item; lack of natural mana sustain, and no explanation for the CDR.



While it solves the explanation "problem", it becomes a weaker item late game where each auto attack could restore anywhere from 10 to 50 mana, depending on crits and mana level at the time.

What's more, I feel the "mana vamp scepter" is a more interesting item to get as anyone who would potentially get Essence Reaver. A small amount of AD with sustain feels better than mana regen and cdr.
It's true that AD casters put a lot of emphasis on their abilities, but they also rely on auto attacks a lot. Getting Idol reminds me of Blue Ez getting a tear, which put him behind in power level compared to any other adc who got a pick axe for pretty much the same amount.

As far as the cdr coming out of nowhere being a problem, I don't quite understand. There's no "basic cdr item", with just cdr on it. It always comes from a combine cost. Brutalizer (2 LS+combine), Fiendish Codex (tome+cost), Forbidden Idol (2 Charms+cost) etc. What makes it weird in Essence Reaver's case is that the cdr comes in the final item?


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17inchcorkscrew

Senior Member

09-29-2014

Quote:
Melvear:
While it solves the explanation "problem", it becomes a weaker item late game where each auto attack could restore anywhere from 10 to 50 mana, depending on crits and mana level at the time.

How would adding Mp5 make an item weaker? The manavamp would probably be reduced to compensate, but the item's overall power would stay pretty much the same.
Quote:
Melvear:
What's more, I feel the "mana vamp scepter" is a more interesting item to get as anyone who would potentially get Essence Reaver. A small amount of AD with sustain feels better than mana regen and cdr.
It's true that AD casters put a lot of emphasis on their abilities, but they also rely on auto attacks a lot. Getting Idol reminds me of Blue Ez getting a tear, which put him behind in power level compared to any other adc who got a pick axe for pretty much the same amount.

So you want to be able to build as much damage as anybody else and have mana sustain? Manavamp is more situational than spellvamp, and there's no reason to devote an entire advanced item to it. Already, building a Forbidden Idol and selling it for six items is the cheapest way to get extra mana sustain (other than pots, which generally suffice); this just adds a buildpath for it.
Quote:
Melvear:
As far as the cdr coming out of nowhere being a problem, I don't quite understand. There's no "basic cdr item", with just cdr on it. It always comes from a combine cost. Brutalizer (2 LS+combine), Fiendish Codex (tome+cost), Forbidden Idol (2 Charms+cost) etc. What makes it weird in Essence Reaver's case is that the cdr comes in the final item?

In general, component items have all of the stats of a final item so that one can get every stat that one needs, in smaller amounts, while building towards the final item. For Reaver, both the mana sustain and the CDR only come upon completion.


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Melvear

Senior Member

09-30-2014

Quote:
17inchcorkscrew:
How would adding Mp5 make an item weaker? The manavamp would probably be reduced to compensate, but the item's overall power would stay pretty much the same.


The way I read the comment, mp5 would be the only mana sustain for the item. Having both once Reaver is complete would obviously not make it weaker, though is seems unnecessary.

Quote:
So you want to be able to build as much damage as anybody else and have mana sustain? Manavamp is more situational than spellvamp, and there's no reason to devote an entire advanced item to it. Already, building a Forbidden Idol and selling it for six items is the cheapest way to get extra mana sustain (other than pots, which generally suffice); this just adds a buildpath for it.


No, I don't want to have as much damage as anyone else as well as mana sustain, and I feel this was not implied in what I said in any way. Assuming a cost similar to a vamp Scepter for this component, you'd get 40% of the AD someone getting a pickaxe would have for the same/nearly the same investment. What you get though is *some* AD, which means that while your power level doesn't increase nearly as much as someone investing for straight AD, at least you're not stagnant.

Reaver tries to cater to the mana need of AD casters, but it fails because the mana restore component comes in too late. It certainly is nice to have even late game, but the crucial moment to have it is early. Having this key element as a stepping stone towards the final item would make a whole lot more sense.

Quote:
In general, component items have all of the stats of a final item so that one can get every stat that one needs, in smaller amounts, while building towards the final item. For Reaver, both the mana sustain and the CDR only come upon completion.


Which, in my opinion, is quite logical. Getting cdr before you have any form of mana sustain only means you'll dry yourself out quicker. 10% cdr mostly means quicker recharge on your ultimate and increased harass potential. You'd need much more than that to impact an all in fight. There are very few APC who build Fiendish Codex first on their way to Athene's. Most will get Chalice first. And I'd be willing to bet they would do it even if the MR came from Codex instead of chalice. Mana first, cdr second.


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The5lacker

Senior Member

09-30-2014

Quote:
Melvear:
The way I read the comment, mp5 would be the only mana sustain for the item. Having both once Reaver is complete would obviously not make it weaker, though is seems unnecessary.

If "That's the way you read it" you need to take an elementary school reading comprehension course. We're talking about ADDING SOMETHING TO THE RECIPE OF A CURRENT ITEM TO EXPLAIN WHERE ITS MANA RESTORATION AND CDR IS COMING FROM. Not TAKING AWAY THE CORE IDENTITY OF THE ITEM.


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