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The Problem that is Runnan's

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The5lacker

Senior Member

08-23-2014

Quote:
ItsStout:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again- you make the point "its not an ADC item". All the time. Guess what I said in my first post in this thread?



My entire argument, although mostly incoherent (I haven't been in a good state of being as of late) has always been- its made for on hit champions.

Tell me, how many on hit ranged champions are there that can sacrifice an item in thier build for Runnans?

I know only three, and one of them isn't even viable.

Teemo
Kog' Maw (AP)
Varus (AP)

ADC's, even with items like BotRK which are on-hit effects, can simply not sacrifice anything to buy an item that doesn't scale with that stat. That's fine. However, that rules out half of all ranged champs.

The other half is mages. Most mages do not rely on AA's, with exceptions such as Twisted Fate, or Varus. However, Twisted Fate (and most others) would grab Nashors and be done with it.

So, with most Mages and ADC's ruled out, that leaves a class that is currently occupied by one champion using a specific build.

Bruiser/On-Hit Teemo

On-hit is generally a Bruiser stat, as most ADC's cannot sacrifice stats such as crit or AD in favor of Wits Ends MR shred and Magic damage, but Bruisers love the flat damage that allows them to build tanky otherwise. Thus, it makes sense that Runnan's is a Bruiser item. Most Bruisers scale with AS, On-hit, and are more likely to have on-hit of thier own. Only a few exceptions (aforementioned) can build Runnans in its current state.


The way to fix Runnan's without reworking it into something completely different is to create a new group of ranged champions that scale off of on-hit effects, rather than Crit (or AP or whatever). A ranged Bruiser, if you will. Because Runnan's is the perfect tool for a class that does not exist.


Okay? You happy? That good enough? THATS HOW I THINK IT SHOULD BE FIXED, 5LACKER. THATS BEEN MY ARGUMENT THE WHOLE TIME. Okay? To me, it just seems like you've been reading my first post in the thread over and over, trying to decipher whatever I put on the page at the time.

They aren't far and few between for ranged, they're far and few between IN GENERAL. You listed a bunch of melee champs who don't actually have any damaging on-hit effects, they have, at best, cooldown reduction on-hit. Which is pointless. Which is why I shared MY list of champions who wouldn't actually benefit from Runaan's: You listed a similar bunch of ranged champions.

Runaan's is not a bruiser item, because bruisers do not build on-hit effects, because there are all of 3 on-hit effects to build, one of which scales on AP. Bruisers build AD. Don't delude yourself. If bruisers want to deal damage with their AUTOATTACKS they will typically build ATTACK DAMAGE. Especially considering Ravenous Hydra exists, Lifesteal exists, and The Black Cleaver takes care of that pesky Armor problem, on-hit champions are far and few between.

Lets try actually listing champs with potent on-hit effects, because I want you to see exactly what you're talking about, because you've build up this wall of ignorance that I have to tear down.

Melee champs with damaging on-hit effects that would theoretically be applied on Runaan's:
Udyr (Tiger Stance on-hit damage)
Akali (Discipline of Force)
Irelia (Hiten Style)
Warwick (Eternal Thirst)
Elise (Spider Form)
Rumble (Junkyard Titan)
Fizz (Seastone Trident)
Darius (Hemorrhage)
Gankplank (Grog-Soaked Blade)
Kassadin (Nether Blade)

Ranged champs with damaging on-hit effects that are applied on Runaan's:
Jinx (Fishbones' Splash)
Corki (Hextech Shrapnel Shell)
Orianna (Clockwork Windup)
Thresh (Flay)
Kog'Maw (Bio-arcane barrage)
Varus (Blighted Quiver)
Teemo (Poison Shot)
Twitch (Deadly Venom)
Kayle (Righteous Fury)

Wow. Those lists look pretty much equal in length, don't they? It seems that, in actuality, there are a relatively equal number of Ranged and Melee champs with on-hit effects who'd theoretically want to use Runaan's. The difference being melee champs have Ravenous Hydra (Which, I might remind you, scales on AD, applies Lifesteal, and has in general seemed to be a drastically superior option for applying damage to multiple targets. But it can afford to be better because Melee champions have a higher risk.

Runaan's, meanwhile, is for ranged champions. Not ADCs. Ranged. There is a difference. There is nothing that makes it an ADC item. It grants AS. Attack Speed. You know, that thing that any champion reliant on autoattacks uses. And you know what applies on-hit effects? Autoattacks. Which means (gasp) on-hit champs also want Attack Speed.

You need to take your definition of "bruiser" and throw it away. Your term doesn't make any sense and doesn't match the generally accepted definition (For starters, the defining champion trait for bruisers isn't "always buys Wit's End no matter what".) A bruiser is a champion who builds a mix of offense and defense and exists to disrupt fights and survive burst to break through and punish mages. Not every bruiser is a Warwick clone, play someone other than him for once.

There is nothing wrong with Runaan's at the moment. It merely occupies a bizarre niche. It isn't causing problems. It doesn't have any problems other than a relatively small list of champions who can make strong use of it. That's okay. An item that fills a very limited niche BUT DOESN'T BREAK ANYTHING isn't a problem. It's just quirky.


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ItsStout

Senior Member

08-23-2014

Mkay, I agree. I'm just saying that it would be interesting if the group that actually wants to build attack speed due to an on-hit effect could be expanded, as its small but intresting enough to deserve merit.

Also, my definition of bruiser is not the same as a fighter (to me, I mean, I know they're the same thing). In my mind, a bruiser is tankier that a fighter and relies on base damage to succeed, building only the minimum offence (Shyvanna, Olaf, ECT.) while a fighter often gains free defensive stats or a defensive advantage (Jax, Diana, ECT.). Keep this in mind as I post, please.

Also, based only on my definition (not always true) the "bruisers" (heavy fighters) would prefer BotRK to Hydra.


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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

08-23-2014

Quote:
ItsStout:
I mean, it works. But does Jinx need it? I honestly don't know, but can't she 1shot minion waves anyway?

When I say "Jinx with Runaan's", your first reaction was minion wave clear.

Let me put it this way; if the situation fits Ryze (E) or Brand (R), it also fits Jinx with Runaan's. Enemy team has a Sona? That's a huge signal for just how often you'll see their team clustering together.

It's a situation item, but it's actually effective in a Marksman build on Jinx in that instance.


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SirLapse

Senior Member

08-23-2014

Quote:
JustMyBassCannon:
When I say "Jinx with Runaan's", your first reaction was minion wave clear.

Let me put it this way; if the situation fits Ryze (E) or Brand (R), it also fits Jinx with Runaan's. Enemy team has a Sona? That's a huge signal for just how often you'll see their team clustering together.

It's a situation item, but it's actually effective in a Marksman build on Jinx in that instance.


I actually only buy Ruunan's when I don't need to bolster my stats for damage, just impact in teamfights. So I naturally aim for it when I play Kog'Maw against "siege defense" champions like Leona, Braum, etc. Basically anyone with a decent counter-engage. Other carries can actually use it for that goal too, if they don't necessarily need AD or ArPen immediately. So obviously champions like Draven and Sivir won't really use Runaan's.


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TomStheTankEngin

Senior Member

09-24-2014

Quote:
ItsStout:
The problem with this item is easy to see. It carries itself around like an ADC item- but it doesn't even crit. In reality, it's made for On-hit builds, which are few and far between in the world of Ranged. Hell, if WW could use this, he'd be the best champ in the game (not to mention the entertaining possibility of what happens in Dragon Form Shyvanna Q...). What I'm trying to say is that this item was meant to be an ADC item, but is more useful on an Orriana with Nashors than it is on Draven. Its not an ADC item at all and it was made for the wrong set of champs.

The problem with your argument is that you think Crit is the only way to build marksmen(like Riot I refuse to make them feel like gods given them the title "carry&quot. I regularly 1v1 enemy Marksmen with my non-crit builds even when they have they fancy 90%+ crit chance. It is about the math and the play style. And by play style I mean smart enough to fight near minion waves or close to team fights for the full AoE marksman experience.

With a Runaan's Hurricane, Essence Reaver, BoRK(doing estimate math for the damage, including compensation for the enemy's lifesteal), Black Cleaver, and Muramana on say Cait(no runes or masteries): In a 5 second battle
*319AD, ~2.0 AS(procs Headshot roughly every 1.25ish seconds[or 3 attacks]), BoRK(160ish bonus damage if around 2k max hp), Muramana(3% of max mana=57 bonus damage), Essesnce Reaver "heals" 2-8%(based on missing mana) of the total damage dealt by the Auto attacks, and black lceaver shreds armor increasing damage slightly withn each attack.
So Attack 1= 536(restoring 11 mana and 107hp), Attack 2= 499(restoring 12 mana and 100 HP), Attack 3=Headshot for 647[Also leaves 2 stacks on Headshot], attack 4= 475, Attack 5= Headshot for 634, attack 6= 459, Attack 7= 448, Attack 8 headshot(2stacks left over for later) for 603, Attack 9= 428, Attack 10= Headshot for 573
*This is a total of 5302 damage and 1060hp as lifesteal

Now Cait with the normal crit build(including 20% crit from runes so they already thev the "advantage&quot: Same 5 seconds[IE, Shiv, Phantom Dancer, Bloodthirster, BoRK, Berserker Greaves95% crit so I will assume 9 out of the 10 will crit), this is actually more like my build since most people would probably go for damage over the PD. 286AD, ~2.0AS
*Attack 1= 875, Attack 2= 855, Attack 3= 835, Attack 3= 815, Attack 4= 795, Attack 5(the non-crit)= 356, Attack 6= 755, Attack 7= 735, Attack 8=Headshot for 962, Attack 9= 695, Attack 10= 675
*Totals: 8337damage and 1620hp as lifesteal.
You might thin thats 3000 more damage. However, that is if the non-crit build does not have runes. The first cait would have a much higher base AD and lower CD's = more damaging and more often Q's. Figure in the extra damage on Auto's and Headshots and Q's you will close that 3k gap pretty quick. On top of this, the Runaan's build is 1300 gold cheaper and with runaan's you will clear waves fasterthus farm more and complete your build quicker.

Like I said. It boils down to play style. I personally prefer the AoE since it clears waves about twice as fast as the "crit build". Which means when you split push, it is much more devastating.


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F93KT9V5

Junior Member

09-29-2014

Hurricane is a good item on Cait, passive goes of every 4th shot and in brush every other shot. Also good on graves, E cooldown is 3 times less, meaning 3 times more dashes and 3 times often attack speed buff. And of course the almighty teemo. A fed teemo with a hurricane melts squishies.