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Azubu Crystal Cup - player recordkeeping?

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Behold the Void

Senior Member

07-27-2014

Quote:
Fancy Wolf:
This is easier said than done. Wolferer plays his comfort champs and has enough knowledge of the map to actually make them work. Same with someone like NewbV3 who uses things like sej/morg/ahri botlane.

The glory of Dominion is that most champions are incredibly viable in the given situations. The problem is, everyone has the mindset of "im so good at this game" so they think they can be the next super innovative guy without having any deep knowledge of the map.

We dismiss a large number of champions because they're not entirely viable unless played to the highest caliber or with a proper comp. Most people coming to try Dominion already have negative views on it. So when they come and pick something like Aatrox top for example and get completely stomped that impression of the mode becomes worse. We tell them to check tier lists so they have a general guideline as to what champs are essentially "easier" to pick up and play on the mode without needing too much knowledge.

Its like someone trying to learn Smash at the highest level. You dont put them on Fox who is the most advanced tech heavy character in the game, you start them off with someone simple like Marth who doesn't require massive amounts of tech to be successful but still has a great skill ceiling.


OK, so I really need to ask, who is this for? Is this for the 50-ish top level Dominion players? Or is this for the hundreds, maybe even thousands of potential Dominion players who might watch the tournament and be interested in playing but will never be top level players? Because if it's the former let me know and I'll bow out right now since I have 0 interest in supporting or wasting my time with a space that only acknowledges the highest of the high, which is where I think the community generally is.

Some points in general.

1. High level commentary is good, it's great to hear about the extra mechanics and factors people are tracking at the highest level of play. So long as it's not too obtuse, it's well worth it.
2. Just because a champion is suboptimal at the higher levels does not mean that it is nearly as bad at the lower levels. At my ELO, I've tried several of wolferer's off the wall picks, and have managed to excel by emulating the build and style he did. Would it work against you guys? Probably not, but were I to continue trying to climb the ladder and keep at it, I could conceivably do it. Don't tell us lower level players to never play champions. Warning us that it's not necessarily a great idea is fine, but saying never to do it is going to turn people off and is frankly ignorant to the fact that at the lower level there's a lot more leeway TO make these kinds of picks work. I'd much rather know why these picks are working than just being told "wolferer does that but he's the only one who can, don't bother trying and I won't talk about it".
3. This is why I reiterate yet again how important I think it is to properly codify this information and it's frustrating that you continue to not even acknowledge this request. For one, how do you expect more people to attain this level if you refuse to share the knowledge of those that came before? This is how competitive play evolves, on top of that that has come before. And how can those who would be fantastic casters but don't necessarily have the full mechanical capability to play at the top level. Being able to read and study this kind of thing gives them the tools they can to be great. You guys constantly talk about how it has to be a top level player but that's bull**** because there are plenty of sports casters who aren't physically capable of going pro but are still completely suitable to provide commentary. The unwillingness of the high level players to share knowledge is creating a gate to entry that honestly is extremely detrimental to more people wanting to get involved.


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Gandair

Member

07-27-2014

Hello Behold the Void!

I am Gandair and I enjoy recordkeeping. There is a variety of reasons that this information is not online. Let me take a few moments to tell you about it. First I'd like to address some things you said in your various posts in the thread.

"is there a way to log a database of players who compete in it?"
yes

"it seems prudent to start collecting all of this data now", "And the best way to do this is to compile all of that information and actually write it down somewhere it will be saved and archived", "It's not written down", "That's why I feel it imperative that we start recording this stuff"
I'm doing exactly that and have been doing so since Dec 2011

"I'd say the thing to do is work to emulate in some ways the way the LCS does it.", "I'd avoid those kinds of jokes in the future"
As a community we've avoided and disliked the style of LCS to varying degrees. That goes for viewers, commentators, and players. Generally we have enjoyed the community interaction and commentary over the suit & tie style rigid casting of LCS. We're more like the fighting game community in that regard.

"Riot will take notice"
debatable

"Wouldn't that be fantastic?"
yes

"At one point, a caster said "I don't really know much about bot lane" and I about put my fist through my laptop."
wow, calm the hell down, maybe you shouldn't be watching streams if you have reactions like that, no one's perfect and I wouldn't want you to damage your hardware or yourself

"paid professionals, casters, and other staff who can dedicate their careers to analyzing this information and disseminating it to the common player in easier to understand and more interesting chunks."
It would be expensive to fairly compensate people to track this data.



Now on the subject of managing all of this data. I will give you some images of my file directory.

This is a picture of the number of folders, number of files, and their total size.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn202/Gandair/DominionFilesscreencap_zpsef0c970b.png

This is a picture of the brackets. There is a copy of each of these as well as brackets that aren't listed in the folders as pictures in the above link. They're also kept in this separate folder for faster reference.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn202/Gandair/Dominionbracketsscreencap_zpse926dc39.png

This is a picture of the registration screencaps from as many events as I could find. There are also copies of these in each of their respective folders. They're also kept in this separate folder for faster reference.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn202/Gandair/Dominionregistrationsscreencap_zps072a87d6.png

These pictures are examples of the contents of the folders in list view and in icon view.
list view, http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn202/Gandair/DD43ScreenshotListScreencap_zps43e83353.png
icon view, http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn202/Gandair/Dominionfoldercontentsexamplescreenshot_zps69855bf8.png

This picture is an example of some of the text files that I have tracking various things. In order from left to right are pictures of Pays Evelynn Child Support's team records, champion picks + summoner spells + final builds, Lulu's champ-specific winrate, and the game tracker from the 4Players Liga (4PL) tournament that was held on Europe West (EUW) server.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn202/Gandair/Dominionwrittenstuffexamplescreenshot_zps2a31f470.png

This is a picture of the total size of all relevant competitive dominion files not including video.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn202/Gandair/Dominionpicturestotalscreenshot_zpsf2e558a0.png

This is a link to the playlists section of the VATOCLAN youtube channel where competitive dominion gameplay is archived. Some video has not been uploaded yet and some was lost entirely (DD73, DT1), but a large portion of it is there. Click "Load More" at the bottom to see how far down it goes.
http://www.youtube.com/user/VATOCLAN/playlists



A short story of how this all came to be. Like yourself I enjoy seeing pick/ban statistics, how often items are build, and want to identify player-specific pick trends. Answering questions such as "who is most banned" and "who does Hipeoples play the most" is one of many goals. There's also for-fun stats like player lifetime KDR (kills to deaths ratio), champion-specific win/loss ratio independent of player, team winrates, and nearly limitless other things. Downloading all of this media was a massive task. Once the media was downloaded I also had go through every image and edit out personal info like skype names, offline names, and email addresses. The below videos are examples of some of the follies which have occurred during archiving.

Gandair rescues missing finals screenshots from the internet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL5cUo6AWMA

DD26 Bracket Restoration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv15T59EW4c

Gandair reviews DD30 screenshots
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMduGbRiXkI

Situations like the ones in those videos are very common occurrences that I've had to deal with in archiving. I've come across a system of naming files that works very well.

EventAbbreviationEvent# Round# Game# WinningTeam vs LosingTeam chatbans/champ select/outcome
AzubuCC2 Ro4 G1 Killing Dominion Since 2011 vs Destro outcome

That is how it looks when labelled properly, but most screenshots were just imgur links with a random sequence of letters as the file name. Other times when posted in forum threads or other places designated for postgame match media they were not titled by the players. There is a lot of manual renaming involved and in the cases of team names not being posted I would have to check the in-game names of the people in the screenshot against the registration screenshots to confirm the rosters and identify the team. Sometimes older screenshots were not dated so I had to look up the date by looking at the patch revision listed on the upper right of the LoL client and comparing that to the patch history. Then once I found the range of time that particular patch covered I would match it to an event date on the calender. I've since made a timeline to make that easier.

I stopped counting after somewhere close to 180 hours and that was back in 2012. I still work on it for about 10-12 hours a week because there is always new information. Sorting it takes a lot of time as well. Bans are the easiest thing to track, followed by team records, but after that it gets ugly. Player and champ specific records are much more difficult to calculate because the screenshots are labelled by event and team. There have been many team name and player name changes over the years. Team roster shuffling has also caused issues in tracking players because one player can have played for multiple teams over the years.

It's all very fascinating work, but in the end I don't have any place to put this information whenever something does get up to date. At one time the team records were up-to date and I was able to make images like these.

Point Defense info image (from DD42)
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn202/Gandair/5Stats_zps0ebaf655.jpg

Pays Evelynn Child Support vs Point Defense info image (from DD42)
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn202/Gandair/PECSvs5_zps1b348d37.jpg

Feel the Vibe info image (From DD52)
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn202/Gandair/FTVDD51_zpsb80be75c.jpg

Pays Evelynn Child Support info image (from DD52)
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn202/Gandair/PECSDD51_zpsd2e992ed.jpg



I tracked Lulu's champ win rate per player who plays her and her overall winrate independent of who played her and that took an amount of hours in the teens of manually reviewing and confirming screenshots. You may be wondering if there is a way to automate this process and the answer is yes. Using well made spreadsheets would be able to automatically calculate these things but there are a few snags in doing to. The spreadsheets have to be huge. Tracking bans lists one game on each row and one champion on each column. This is big but manageable and the same can be used for picks. When you get into player wins per champion each column is a champion and each row is a player. Repeat this process for teams picking champs and anything else dealing with champs. That's pick and ban rates. Let's get into winrates though.

To calculate winrates by team, player, and champion we need a similar setup but the list of players who have competed in these tournaments is rather extended. There have been over 100 events averaging 10 games each putting us at 1000. The real number is higher than that but let's keep the math easy. At 1000 games there are 10 players per game which is 10,000 entries worth of information. This can be done, but one person (myself) is unable to keep it up-to date without putting in full time hours. I was putting in full-time hours on this project when I made the info images linked above, but I fell behind on archive VOD production as a result. Additionally other projects I had fell behind as I drilled the stats project. What if I had help though?

At multiple different points in time people volunteered their time and effort to the stats project, but none of them lasted. I'm very thankful for their assistance. After a few weeks or a couple months of retrieving, labeling, and sorting information to give to me they would give up outright, find excuses to stop doing it, disappear entirely or my favorite "how many more of these are there?" and upon hearing the answer back out of helping. This is part of the reason the 4PL stats were lost. The person who was working on them slowly stopped getting back to me with them and then unexpectedly 4PL's site dropped all those old pages.

In a similar case while I was archiving solo National Electronic Sports League (NESL) for reasons unknown to me closed their twitch channel and with it all the NESL archived broadcasts of their dominion tournaments. This is back when I was afraid to rip other people's video due to copyright. Now I just download it and sit on it even if I can't post it online. All of the NESL produced video is lost. The only remaining records of NESL competition are the postgame screenshots and brackets that I copied down before the site was closed. The only remaining video from NESL era is on the youtube channel covertCoder https://www.youtube.com/user/covertCoder/videos

covertCoder for anyone who doesn't know is Nekrogen (aka Only1hp on EUW server). cyber-sports site has also gone down and with it all of middle-era dominatedominion records, but thankfully I was able to save or reconstruct those from screenshots. Paradox's site closed and none of the screenshots were able to be saved before it went down. I was picking up older stuff first and didn't think the newest tournament would offline so suddenly after it's 4th event. Currently mobafire era DD records are still online. I have all the vods from LoLPro 1 and 2. Thankfully due to riot saving match media online the Azubu stats are readily retrievable. Further I may be the only person with the video ripped from the beyond gaming twitch stream of the only dominion LAN that was ever held. There is also Dominion Brasil which I have all the media I could find of. Recently I've learned about a Japanese dominion tournament but I haven't been able to find any media on it. There may be other small events I'm missing.

There is a lot of media both video and images to sort through and organize. The amount of time needed to get a single spreadsheet up to date is gigantic. Maintaining it once it's current is easier but still takes hours out of a week. If you were to pay someone minimum wage (it varies by state so let's say 8.50) to do this and they did 10 hour weeks (2hr a day for 5 days) you would be paying out 340 dollars a month. Unfortunately that small amount of time each week would not put us up to date. That's if we were paid. There's likely people who would do it for free if the information were easier to access which brings me to crowdsourcing it.

The first problem of "where do we put this information?" has a simple answer of "the internet". It needs to put somewhere that everyone can access and edit. I cannot afford to pay for such a site to exist. If someone has a site that could be used I actually don't know about it. My focus has been on collection more than publishing however so if there's a simple solution to the problem of "where?" then I'd love to hear it.

You mention Azubu specifically though. It's much easier to track just Azubu data because it's new and relevant to their tournament. That is what I'm currently working on but making the spreadsheets is taking a lot of time. Currently the bans one is done and I'm working through the picks spreadsheet. Then I have to get into teams, players, and champ items. There's so much information.

That is the current state of the statistics and archiving that I've been doing. While writing this I realized it has been a long time since I've given an update. This turned into a bit of a rant. Thanks for being patient with me about it.


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Gandair

Member

07-27-2014

Quote:
Behold the Void:
OK, so I really need to ask, who is this for? Is this for the 50-ish top level Dominion players? Or is this for the hundreds, maybe even thousands of potential Dominion players who might watch the tournament and be interested in playing but will never be top level players? Because if it's the former let me know and I'll bow out right now since I have 0 interest in supporting or wasting my time with a space that only acknowledges the highest of the high, which is where I think the community generally is.

Some points in general.

1. High level commentary is good, it's great to hear about the extra mechanics and factors people are tracking at the highest level of play. So long as it's not too obtuse, it's well worth it.
2. Just because a champion is suboptimal at the higher levels does not mean that it is nearly as bad at the lower levels. At my ELO, I've tried several of wolferer's off the wall picks, and have managed to excel by emulating the build and style he did. Would it work against you guys? Probably not, but were I to continue trying to climb the ladder and keep at it, I could conceivably do it. Don't tell us lower level players to never play champions. Warning us that it's not necessarily a great idea is fine, but saying never to do it is going to turn people off and is frankly ignorant to the fact that at the lower level there's a lot more leeway TO make these kinds of picks work. I'd much rather know why these picks are working than just being told "wolferer does that but he's the only one who can, don't bother trying and I won't talk about it".
3. This is why I reiterate yet again how important I think it is to properly codify this information and it's frustrating that you continue to not even acknowledge this request. For one, how do you expect more people to attain this level if you refuse to share the knowledge of those that came before? This is how competitive play evolves, on top of that that has come before. And how can those who would be fantastic casters but don't necessarily have the full mechanical capability to play at the top level. Being able to read and study this kind of thing gives them the tools they can to be great. You guys constantly talk about how it has to be a top level player but that's bull**** because there are plenty of sports casters who aren't physically capable of going pro but are still completely suitable to provide commentary. The unwillingness of the high level players to share knowledge is creating a gate to entry that honestly is extremely detrimental to more people wanting to get involved.


Read my post and stop being mad about us not posting. Offer solutions instead of attacking us for not sharing information.


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Behold the Void

Senior Member

07-27-2014

Quote:
Gandair:
Read my post and stop being mad about us not posting. Offer solutions instead of attacking us for not sharing information.


Actually, what you posted first was exactly what I was looking for, you just posted it after I posted my last post so, sorry? Anyway to the matter at hand, can we not use the free resources offered by, say, wikia.com? It's easy to access, editable by the community and can be used to compile it. Starting with the Crystal Cup data should be fairly simple, and beyond that we can start working to codify the rest of it. There's a lot to sift through I can see, but having it in one centralized location means the project can be worked on over time and we can work backwards, putting the more recent stuff up first.


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Gandair

Member

07-27-2014

Stat collection and it's inclusion in the broadcasts was brought up before Azubu's first crystal cup. They want to use esportspedia to host the stats and according to what I've heard there is someone working on that. I was told that there is an issue with everything having to be formatted differently to fit their site. As it stands currently I'm waiting to hear further information from them on the subject of how they wish to handle it. An important thing to remember is that we as commentators host and produce the live stream. There is additional production and direction we recieve from the administration. The choice to include statistics pages and other such into into the broadcast is up to them. The choice to include them by spoken word is on us casters. The choice to put them online it currently seems to be up to anyone.

On the subject of making a dominion wiki; that has been mentioned before. I don't know how to start with that sort of thing or what is involved with running it. My strength is working within guidelines. Improvising the beginning of things is where I am weakest.

Edit: may not get back to this thread until tomorrow or later


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Behold the Void

Senior Member

07-27-2014

Quote:
Gandair:
Stat collection and it's inclusion in the broadcasts was brought up before Azubu's first crystal cup. They want to use esportspedia to host the stats and according to what I've heard there is someone working on that. I was told that there is an issue with everything having to be formatted differently to fit their site. As it stands currently I'm waiting to hear further information from them on the subject of how they wish to handle it. An important thing to remember is that we as commentators host and produce the live stream. There is additional production and direction we recieve from the administration. The choice to include statistics pages and other such into into the broadcast is up to them. The choice to include them by spoken word is on us casters. The choice to put them online it currently seems to be up to anyone.

On the subject of making a dominion wiki; that has been mentioned before. I don't know how to start with that sort of thing or what is involved with running it. My strength is working within guidelines. Improvising the beginning of things is where I am weakest.

Edit: may not get back to this thread until tomorrow or later


I figured that'd be the case for Crystal Cup, and there's no problem with that. I do think including the stats off-site might not be a bad idea for completeness's sake, but if they're already setting something more legitimate up than so much the better.

Not sure if I have time this week, but I may be able to whip something up just to beta. Setting up wikias isn't terribly hard, thankfully, I'd just need to play with it a bit. Visuals and coding may be a bit more difficult but at its core to make a wikia you pretty much just sign up.


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Adori Vita Vis

Senior Member

07-27-2014

hey gandair can you supply me with the past 12 consecutive weeks worth of tournament placement info including weeks without a tourny or the links to the brackets?


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wolferer

Senior Member

07-27-2014

Hey Gandair, if you want some help parsing all of the old data you have and getting stats I can help you with that. Depending on how well organized the file structures are it should be pretty easy to automate that with some scripting. I could design a database for the info too if you're in to that. I do this sort of thing for a living.


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MonsterSS4

Senior Member

07-28-2014

Quote:
wolferer:
Hey Gandair, if you want some help parsing all of the old data you have and getting stats I can help you with that. Depending on how well organized the file structures are it should be pretty easy to automate that with some scripting. I could design a database for the info too if you're in to that. I do this sort of thing for a living.


Confirmed scripter, kappa


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FRlG OFF BARB

Senior Member

07-28-2014

Also, fancy / hipeoples (looking at you mostly fancy) you screwed up our team name on the overlay. "Kill Dom" isn't even a team in this tourney. My team name is "Dom Isn't Dead, Dom Left Yesterday" or DIDDLY for short.


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