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Azubu Crystal Cup - player recordkeeping?

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Behold the Void

Senior Member

07-26-2014

Hey guys, I was watching the Crystal Cup today and I thought it was really good. Last time admittedly I felt was a bit sloppy and uncoordinated in a number of ways, but today's showing was really good. The casting was generally in line with how the LCS broadcasts tend to run, I liked it a lot.

I was wondering, something that might help both the current casters and any others who might be interested in casting (I'd love to see more casters if for no other reason than being able to see more of the matches that are being played with full casting), is there a way to log a database of players who compete in it? Even if it's just off a free wikia program, I think it'd be really interesting to have the stats on champions played and banned. It'd give casters more information for fills, you can talk about things like the champion ban rate and performance. Especially if the Crystal Cup is going to be a long-running event (which I hope it is!) it seems prudent to start collecting all of this data now, it gives it a greater sense of continuity and gives people a place to go to look up more information.


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Fancy Wolf

Senior Member

07-26-2014

Normally I run notepad or just use my memory of past dominion tournaments and I write down notes of everything important/players champs to make sure I call them out when casting.

I even do warm up casts before tourneys throughout the week or the day of to make sure Im ready. Watching what people are playing in solo Q when they pre-made or things they might pick up and use for the tournament.

Also if there was anything in particular you remember about the first time we ran the tourney that could be fixed by all means go 100% in the criticism, constructive or not I always take note of it and keep it in mind for the next time.


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Behold the Void

Senior Member

07-26-2014

Well, basically as I mentioned in the thread for the tourney itself, ultimately I'd love to be able to watch more of the games. I get the feeling that we're probably going to be seeing Clueless vs. Killing Dominion for a good long while yet, and while yes it's true they play great games I'd really like to see more of the competition and more competitive games, and I think that can best be accomplished by having a space where other potential casters can learn and study about both the players and the meta. It's great that you've got a notepad full of all the data, but if it were more accessible it'd make it more open for others to come in and share the burden of casting. Even if the Crystal Cup is only showing the "featured" games, having the other game VODs available after the fact would be awesome for both the non-Dominion regulars who'd like to compete and the viewers to have stuff they can go watch.

I think this can be achieved by compiling this data in an easy-to-access format. High level player profiles, champs picked, champs banned, all of this is important information and all of it is information I think would be great to make readily accessible.

What's the end-goal with this tournament? Ultimately, to bring more exposure to Dominion? Maybe get us ranked? I'd say the thing to do is work to emulate in some ways the way the LCS does it. Have some good, trained casters. They don't have to be the best of the best but they need to have the drive to learn, to study, to follow the meta and the strategies, and to learn the players. And the best way to do this is to compile all of that information and actually write it down somewhere it will be saved and archived. We constantly, where I work, refer to "tribal knowledge," i.e. systems and tools that we have to do weird things for, or odd rules that nobody knows about but are very important but not written down anywhere. We have here a fantastic opportunity to help take the next step with Dominion, get it interest, get it respect, I think it behooves us to start taking the long view, immediately, and doing what we can to make sure there's community support available in the form of websites, build suggestions, analyses, data, and all that other good stuff. It doesn't all have to materialize right away but if we, the fans and players of Dominion can catalyze that kind of infrastructure, one, Riot will take notice, and two, the community at large will take notice and maybe actually play the game. Wouldn't that be fantastic?

With regards to the prior casting, I say this with the understanding that it was very short notice, so forgive me if I'm being a bit blunt but you did ask, so.

Honestly, I was severely disappointed with the Crystal Cup's handling a few weeks ago. It felt extremely unprofessional, the casting was scattered and in many places dry. I definitely understood the desire to talk about the past tournaments but I didn't feel like it was often given proper context or good relation, and the play-by-play was lacking. At one point, a caster said "I don't really know much about bot lane" and I about put my fist through my laptop. Especially in a community that's long said that anybody who isn't one of the absolute top players for Dominion is unsuited for casting, to hear one of the top players who had been vetted by the community as worthy to cast games for Dominion say that they didn't understand an enormous aspect of the game was enormously frustrating. The lack of organization was definitely felt too, so I admit I came in here with low hopes but the resolve to continue to watch the stream in hopes that it could become better and support what I feel is a very important part of promoting our game mode.

Today? Today I thought you guys did a damn good job. The casting was much, much better. The fills and transitions were good, it felt a lot more professional. There were hiccups (at one point Killing Dominion was mislabeled which I think persisted for the entirety of the first game) but overall, it was really good. The casters sounded knowledgeable, the information was solid, it was a good time. My biggest complaint, honestly, was that someone needs to buy Popples a new mic. So yeah, I don't know what you guys did between tournaments but this one felt solid, it's something I think we can grow with and I'd like to see steps taken to make it even better in the weeks and months and maybe even years to come.


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Fancy Wolf

Senior Member

07-26-2014

Quote:
Behold the Void:
"I don't really know much about bot lane"


THAT! I know exactly what you are talking about.

My knowledge of bot lane is incredibly vast. The only problem I have with it is match-ups at the highest levels. ESPECIALLY when you get oddball picks like what wolferer brings to the table.

Its not like an SR lane where I have much knowledge on specific match ups or can easily understand why X champ beats Y champ. Dominion is too dynamic for that sort of thing. In certain instances people are not even picking a champ for the botlane match-up but rather for the 5v4 roam.

Im pretty sure I jokingly said I have Koravel around for telling me botlane match-ups since thats all he plays. It was a poor joke I tell my stream all the time, "I dont know anything about botlane, I never play it". I can see how that can be misconstrued as "I dont know anything about botlane LOL" from an outside presence watching. But it was nice having HiPeoples around today because anything I dont have the knowledge on he pretty much covers.


Dominion is not as cut and dry as SR, it has so many intricate details at the top level with team comps and scaling and timings that its incredibly hard to maintain all of that in just memory alone.

If you go back and watch the Azubu vods (w/e its up) and listen to me and poples talk about timings of scaling and how teamcomps interact. that is only a small surface. we could easily spend a good hour on nothing but describing each champion in when they scale what they should be doing at X minutes and when they should be looking to close out games.


Quote:
Behold the Void:
at one point Killing Dominion was mislabeled which I think persisted for the entirety of the first game

Also my fault, I dont get to cast, and havent casted with poples much, and having someone to shoot such high level knowledge back and forth with distracted me. I goofed on changing that. Also poples mic did sound quite even on skype, well figure something out for the next time.

And if you thought things improved this week then let Azubu know, they are always looking for feedback to improve the tournament and we are trying to make it bigger.


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Behold the Void

Senior Member

07-27-2014

Quote:
Fancy Wolf:
THAT! I know exactly what you are talking about.

My knowledge of bot lane is incredibly vast. The only problem I have with it is match-ups at the highest levels. ESPECIALLY when you get oddball picks like what wolferer brings to the table.

Its not like an SR lane where I have much knowledge on specific match ups or can easily understand why X champ beats Y champ. Dominion is too dynamic for that sort of thing. In certain instances people are not even picking a champ for the botlane match-up but rather for the 5v4 roam.

Im pretty sure I jokingly said I have Koravel around for telling me botlane match-ups since thats all he plays. It was a poor joke I tell my stream all the time, "I dont know anything about botlane, I never play it". I can see how that can be misconstrued as "I dont know anything about botlane LOL" from an outside presence watching. But it was nice having HiPeoples around today because anything I dont have the knowledge on he pretty much covers.


Dominion is not as cut and dry as SR, it has so many intricate details at the top level with team comps and scaling and timings that its incredibly hard to maintain all of that in just memory alone.

If you go back and watch the Azubu vods (w/e its up) and listen to me and poples talk about timings of scaling and how teamcomps interact. that is only a small surface. we could easily spend a good hour on nothing but describing each champion in when they scale what they should be doing at X minutes and when they should be looking to close out games.



Also my fault, I dont get to cast, and havent casted with poples much, and having someone to shoot such high level knowledge back and forth with distracted me. I goofed on changing that. Also poples mic did sound quite even on skype, well figure something out for the next time.

And if you thought things improved this week then let Azubu know, they are always looking for feedback to improve the tournament and we are trying to make it bigger.


I didn't catch a link, is there a place to submit feedback to Azubu?

Anyway, going down the line.

Quote:
Fancy Wolf:
THAT! I know exactly what you are talking about.

My knowledge of bot lane is incredibly vast. The only problem I have with it is match-ups at the highest levels. ESPECIALLY when you get oddball picks like what wolferer brings to the table.

Its not like an SR lane where I have much knowledge on specific match ups or can easily understand why X champ beats Y champ. Dominion is too dynamic for that sort of thing. In certain instances people are not even picking a champ for the botlane match-up but rather for the 5v4 roam.

Im pretty sure I jokingly said I have Koravel around for telling me botlane match-ups since thats all he plays. It was a poor joke I tell my stream all the time, "I dont know anything about botlane, I never play it". I can see how that can be misconstrued as "I dont know anything about botlane LOL" from an outside presence watching. But it was nice having HiPeoples around today because anything I dont have the knowledge on he pretty much covers.


Yeah that's definitely how it came off. I'd avoid those kinds of jokes in the future

Quote:
Fancy Wolf:
Dominion is not as cut and dry as SR, it has so many intricate details at the top level with team comps and scaling and timings that its incredibly hard to maintain all of that in just memory alone.

If you go back and watch the Azubu vods (w/e its up) and listen to me and poples talk about timings of scaling and how teamcomps interact. that is only a small surface. we could easily spend a good hour on nothing but describing each champion in when they scale what they should be doing at X minutes and when they should be looking to close out games.


See, I'd wager if you asked the professional casters of SR, they'd say the same, that the are only scratching the surface as well. These games absolutely can be incredibly complex and you're absolutely right to gloss over that - you're trying to make it accessible for everyone after all! Point is, none of this is CODIFIED anywhere. It's not written down. It's "tribal knowledge". We don't have a ready host of paid professionals, casters, and other staff who can dedicate their careers to analyzing this information and disseminating it to the common player in easier to understand and more interesting chunks. That's why I feel it imperative that we start recording this stuff. Right now, people always point to the (now somewhat outdated) "How to Dominion" page. I don't think that's enough. If we're trying to bring more attention to the mode, we need more than that. People want places to talk builds. New patches. Strategies. The fact that the Dominion community at large dismisses a number of champions out of hand and yet wolferer can come in and wreck faces with them definitely says something! Something that a regular player would like to know more about I'm sure. It's not enough to just say "oh it's so complex and I have all this knowledge". That knowledge is useless if people a) don't have ways to understand it and b) don't have venues to utilize it, discuss it, learn more about it, and even argue about it. If all of this stuff is truly so important to the game mode, then we should be able to learn about it somewhere!

Quote:
Fancy Wolf:
Also my fault, I dont get to cast, and havent casted with poples much, and having someone to shoot such high level knowledge back and forth with distracted me. I goofed on changing that. Also poples mic did sound quite even on skype, well figure something out for the next time.


No big deal, things to look out for next time. The fact that I have minor nitpicks this time around is a good thing.

Regarding the mic, to us it had the "moth ball effect" where his voice sounded muted, as if he had something in his mouth. Not sure how the sound filters were interacting but yeah, it was probably some weird mic thing.


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Romantic Metro

Senior Member

07-27-2014

Poples did sound like he was more away from his mic then you were. Not sure why, but that was noticeable. Not distracting just noticeable. Overall I felt like it was good dialogue back and forth with useful stats, and conversation on dominion. There was overall accurate information as well as opinion which is good for both casters. Regardless of differing opinions with the viewership. Nothing felt blatantly wrong. I'd say you both did a really good job. Others probably have better critique than I or have already said something.


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Flore

Recruiter

07-27-2014

The settings for spectating weren't ready, I think I saw you running button check on game one, but you did get everything set quietly while peoples was talking, I'm sure oyu're aware of this though, and I know you prepare heavily to cast, so I don't imagine that will happen again.

Peoples mic setting wasn't as noticable after the first time the call dropped, and was well handled.

I would like to compliment you both on your ability to eloquently explain some of the more advanced rotational tactics happening, HOWEVER it's hard to tell which caster is doing what role, though I imagine that will be more clearly defined as you both cast with each other more, that may just be Fancy needs to talk faster when Peoples lulls, or maybe peoples needs to be less rushed to talk, but there were times it felt peoples was interrupting you, or talking too much, or you weren't showing that you wanted to talk.


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KaWraith

Senior Member

07-27-2014

Nobody here remembers that Gandair has a vast spreadsheet of picks bans, winrates, and etc?

We do have a bunch of 'pro' (though they aren't paid&quot Casters commentators and staff folks.

The major reason so much of this stuff isn't more forthcoming is that dominion is still fairly unpopular, and riot doesn't promote it.


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Fancy Wolf

Senior Member

07-27-2014

Quote:
Behold the Void:
The fact that the Dominion community at large dismisses a number of champions out of hand and yet wolferer can come in and wreck faces with them definitely says something! Something that a regular player would like to know more about I'm sure.


This is easier said than done. Wolferer plays his comfort champs and has enough knowledge of the map to actually make them work. Same with someone like NewbV3 who uses things like sej/morg/ahri botlane.

The glory of Dominion is that most champions are incredibly viable in the given situations. The problem is, everyone has the mindset of "im so good at this game" so they think they can be the next super innovative guy without having any deep knowledge of the map.

We dismiss a large number of champions because they're not entirely viable unless played to the highest caliber or with a proper comp. Most people coming to try Dominion already have negative views on it. So when they come and pick something like Aatrox top for example and get completely stomped that impression of the mode becomes worse. We tell them to check tier lists so they have a general guideline as to what champs are essentially "easier" to pick up and play on the mode without needing too much knowledge.

Its like someone trying to learn Smash at the highest level. You dont put them on Fox who is the most advanced tech heavy character in the game, you start them off with someone simple like Marth who doesn't require massive amounts of tech to be successful but still has a great skill ceiling.


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Fancy Wolf

Senior Member

07-27-2014

Quote:
Flore:
or maybe peoples needs to be less rushed to talk, but there were times it felt peoples was interrupting you, or talking too much, or you weren't showing that you wanted to talk.


Were gonna be working on this throughout the weeks to the next AZB tourney, I want to take it to more of a..
Well talk about big teamfights, make it simpler. and have slowdown periods where we mention key points like finished items, good rotations, what teams need to do next, and what they should have done in the fights.

Small skirmishes happen ALOT on dominion. So we need to find that balance of, talking about the match and talking about the fights.


Ill be watching some LCS today and taking note of what they do, but SR is slower and allows more downtime for sort of talk. I may have poples and I try to make it more like commentary rather than casting (akin to what smash does) talking about big plays but at the same time talking about the character match-ups and certain aspects of what people are doing during the neutral game. I really look up to the smash guys who commentate because its so fast paced like Dominion but they have a great flow when casting and understand when to talk about hits and when to just overview the match.


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