I'm gonna write a book of responses to Ghostcrawler.

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hashinshin

Senior Member

07-25-2014

I'mma put up my stream here where I guess I'll answer any more questions today, since I have nothing better to do. twitch.tv/hashinshin follow if I'm not on, but I should be on for preeeetty much all night. I don't really make any money off streaming so don't think this is some money making play here.

In hopefully a meaningful order:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
Which is?

Overall, I find that forum posters frequently spend a little too much effort being upset and not enough effort in explaining their position. YMMV.
Okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
Yes, this is what I was trying to say. Apologies if that did not come across. I wasn't trying to say that melee players had no skill or that managing minions in top is boring. I wasn't trying to say it's a good thing for ranged champs to invade top lane.

I will say that I've seen several players say that they completely agree with the wet noodle / slap fight situation of a melee vs. melee duel, but they are totally okay with it. That wasn't feedback I expected to hear and the context is useful.
Did you ever play Dawn of War 2? Or hell, Dawn of War 1? The Dawn of War series really. Melee vs. Melee often came down to positioning, who had the greater strength, who had more money to invest in reinforcements, a lot of RNG, but was largely a game of chicken. You look at it and you say "yup those are two forces beating down on each other" I look at it and say "oh man, he's really losing this trade, he has to spend way more on reinforcements, but I guess holding this position is worth it to him."

End result? Just sitting there beating on each other means more than a slap fight. Even the slappiest of fights, Shyvana vs. Mundo MEANS something. Is Mundo vying for position? Is Shyvana trying to force him off the turret? How much health is Mundo willing to lose? Will he use his ult? Will he have enough health to teleport? Is shyvana using the fight to clear the creep wave so she can get back to the jungle to farm more CS while Mundo has to farm under turret? So when people say "we like the slap fight" they aren't saying "I like it when I press W and go AFK as Warwick" They're saying it's just not a slap fight. And that is the SLAPPIEST fight in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
Yes. Totally agree. This is exactly the problem IMO.
Since this quote is a bit contextual, I'll try to set it up: Ghostcrawler effectively says that melee are only good for diving the back line and dying, and the best one at that is the winner. He says the laning phase doesn't matter. If that was true why wouldn't everyone just go Malphite? LAning phase doesn't matter, Malphite is the best at diving the back line and living, so why not Malphite every game?

The obvious retort is: "That's an extreme, he's so bad at the laning phase that it DOES matter now!" Which is fine... except then why is Renekton so popular (or was popular)? Now you say "That's an extreme too, he's SO GOOD at the laning phase that it does matter!" So the laning phase doesn't matter unless you're good at it, or you're bad at it... sounds like the laning phase matters huh?

Now you're gonna say "that's not fair, you strawmanned me!" to which I reply that if I didn't strawman you that you're the idiot that just said the laning phase doesn't matter top, probably in your best interests to let me strawman you so you're not.

More over, this just sounds like "rogue and warrior are both melee that slow and apply MS, so they're basically the same thing."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
Another way to consider it is like this:

-- What tools can a ranged champion potentially have? Range, heals, disengage, steroids, AE, disables, survivability, etc. etc.

-- What tools can a melee champion potentially have? Well, pretty much all of the same tools the ranged have *except* for the range. They are already down one mechanic. If a ranged champion has 20 possible mechanics, the melee has 20 - 1. Does that make sense?

I'll phrase it in terms of an RTS game:

-- Archers have range.
-- Cavalry have speed.
-- Infantry don't have a lot, but often they are cheap or maybe sturdy. Cheap can work in an RTS. It can't as well in a MOBA. Sturdy works okay, but sturdy dude vs. sturdy dude fights can be slow and boring.

Now we could just work twice as hard on melee champs to make sure they end up just as interesting, and in some cases, that is successful. We could also potentially identify some mechanic that melee own and ranged champs rarely have. This would require potentially reworking a lot of champs, but it's totally on the table.
What is this 1997? (The year of the first Age of Empires.) What ever happened to Dawn of War? Dawn of War had ninjas (ork assassins, lictors, etc.) it had ultra tanky death machines (terminators, walkers, etc.) it had ultra fast glass cannons (Howling Banshees being the best example) and it still retained spammy infantry (Orks.) In fact DoW2 had a real problem with Tyranid Warrior spam. A tanky melee unit that spammed gap closers which knocked down enemies. Their solution? Keep warriors just strong enough to 1v1, but give them AoE buffs so in the later game large scale battles they remained useful. Is that REALLY an alien concept? Jarvan has been doing that for years.

But lately Riot just wants melee to be armored death machines like Shyvana. They nerfed Jax, Aatrox, Yorick, Darius, Gangplank, Garen, everything that was deemed unfun. Then they plopped down Shyvana and Mundo on us and proceeded to lament how unfun melee were. What the ****? You guys were the ones that did that to melee, you can't make a decision to remove all the fun damaging melee champions then go back and lament how there are no more fun damaging melee champions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
We're talking about two different things (actually three different things). I'm talking about when a melee fights another melee in an encounter that lasts a few seconds. We think we can make those engagements more, well, engaging.

Many of you are talking about how you enjoy laning with melee, especially against another melee. That's cool. It's not my intention to challenge that.

Some of the rest of you are talking about ranged versus melee. I'm less interested in who is dominant at the moment and more interested in how to solve the underlying challenges for how melee can survive against ranged without always overwhelming them, which relates really strongly to how melee interact in combat with each other.
Once again Riot does it backwards. Ranged came first. Melee were not always like this. They became like this as a RESPONSE to ranged champions being so overpowered. The original melee champions were like Master Yi and Gangplank. High damage, low mobility. Fights between Olaf and Udyr are death matches, not slap fights, and they both have issues getting in to range. Riot decided, on their own free will, to start adding gap closers and CC, to start adding tankiness and removing damage.

You guys blame melee for EVERYTHING and it's insane. Why do all melee have gap closers? Because they needed them to deal with red buff and Ashe. Now they all have gap closers and you say "but now ranged champions need escape moves!" So then they get escape moves which means melee need to be barbarically tanky to ever get in to range, and need multiple entries and gap closers to have a hope. If you want to go back further it's because Riot removed turn speed which allows perfect kiting. DotA does not allow perfect kiting which is why they have so few issues. DotA also doesn't give every ranged champion a 15% perma ranged slow, they actively discourage slows. DotA also handles slows very delicately, rather than handing them out to every support and then lamenting how melee can't get in range.

I think basically where this all comes from. Every time ranged champions get new kiting power, more damage, more survivability, more escape moves, more CC... Riot responds by adding tankiness to melee. It's always the same thing. In season 2 ADC damage was actually lower despite what people say due to the fact that ADCs back then were like Ashe or MF. Nowadays we have Tristana who has been SUBSTANTIALLY buffed in the damage department ripping people apart in 1.5 seconds. Riot's response? Better beef up melee again.
  • CoH made their shorter ranged Americans able to suppress, bomb tanks, and do general utility options.
  • DoW gave their melee high damage, high survivability, high mobility, or high CC/utility, or just AoE buffs for their team. Howling Banshees could insta break morale.
  • WoW had frost mages.
  • Starcraft's range are just straight up worse 1v1 than a melee, and many melee and quasi-melee late game champions get cleaves or substantial upgrades.
  • Many games give melee AoE resist/immunity, and AoEs themselves so their effect in team fights is multiplied to make up for being melee.
  • AoE had useless melee as ranged cavalry/archers/knights just ended up being the triangle of balance. In fact, that triangle of balace was in every RTS of the 2000s as well (Empires Dawn of the Modern World, Empire Earth, Age of Empires, etc.)
Hint, GC worked on the two games I mentioned here where ranged won.

You're telling me you guys with your millions of dollars in salary in your balancing department can't come up with solutions to this problem more complex than the following:

If melee > range, increase range damage.
If range > melee, increase melee survivability.

Because you've done that 500 times now, and it's gotten to the point where Trist is murdering anyone who isn't a melee tank in 1.5 seconds.

This game needs the following:

A massive overhaul of slows. Slows should be short and to the point, or the central power of an ability. NOT spammy, NOT tacked on. Why does Thresh's E slow? Why does Lulu get a 2 seconds 80% slow on top of a massive ranged AoE nuke? Why does Red buff slow?

A reduction in the power in defensive items, in return for the outright removal of LW/VS. No more mid game "welp tanks are now dead, hope you have 3 armor items."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
The question wasn't whether Jax is balanced or the ultimate stage for which skilled players can display their mastery or the pinnacle of champion design. The question was whether we thought he had the "ball of stats" problem. Jax has some problems, but we don't think the "ball of stats" aspect is one of them. Jax does have windows where he is more or less powerful and both teams can use their understanding of those mechanics to try and leverage victory.

Remember in all of my answers / brainstorming / bull****ting here, that I'm not thinking of whose damage we want to tweak for patch 4.13. We have a team to do that and I trust them to do it well. I'm more interested in long-term discussions, such as how we need to redesign melee as a whole (or if we even do) so that we don't constantly have the cycle of ranged dominating melee, followed by a patch (or even season) where melee dominate ranged, followed by yet another flip flop. If your house keeps alternating between too hot and too cold at some point you need to stop twisting the thermostat around and consider rebuilding the furnace. Total stability may not be realistic, but we can at least iterate towards it.
So why did you do a mid season ADC revamp? Now ADCs are dominant by far again, where as previously at least there was some balance between the two. You basically said "we can't just keep twisting the thermostat" after you just turned it to hot again. Great, now that you've won and ranged are too powerful.... we have to lay off the thermostat huh? Really nice there.

The people that like it cold just aren't as important right now is the problem. "Jax is a problem so we removed him from competitive play." Patch after that? "Lucian is a problem so we rebalanced him to keep him in competitive play." It's like we hired a Comcast lobbyman to head up the FCC, except instead we hired a ranged lobbyman to head up balance. You talk the talk, but then when the walking comes around it's always ADCs winning over bruisers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
This happens in a lot of games. The image many devs and players have in their minds of a mage or a sniper is a glass cannon: you can do a ton of damage but can't take it. In historical combat, archers were great at range and tended to crumble to a cavalry charge. That model starts to break down in actual games because range is already such an advantage that they don't need the extra damage as well, and as we've already discussed, melee have to mitigate tons of damage to ever close the gap. I'm not trying to disparage the original LoL devs because obviously they did a lot of things right, but there was never a strong conceptual framework for what the strengths and weaknesses should be of the different roles. They were just focused on making cool champions. Fast forward and we are trying to formalize what a bruiser should be good at. It's okay to break the rules or even have hybrid champions, but we need to know we're breaking the rules when we do so and what the potential costs are of doing so and not stumble into it.
So you get to have your fantasy of a nimble long ranged mobile glass cannon that isn't actually a glass cannon anymore, and bruisers stay weak until you can figure out a way to balance us? Once again, this is ranged winning. Ranged get to have their cake while telling bruisers there isn't enough cake to go around.

Season 0: You can't have cake bruisers, ranged champions need it.
Season 1: You had like 4 months of cake bruisers, ADCs need it now.
Season 2: ADCs and APs LOVE this cake.
Season 3: We got some spare cake, we gave it to the AD casters.
Season 4: We had some spare cake, we gave it to the supports.
Season 4 ADC rework: ADCs needed more cake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
Yes, this is what I meant.



And this. The fun click bait has been "Ghostcrawler hates melee and thinks it takes no skill." That's not the discussion. The discussion is how to make melee champs more interesting rather than Riven blows you up when you try to disengage, and how to make melee vs melee wet noodle fights more interesting that what Mundo vs Shyvana currently looks like.
And this is what really gets me. EVERY TIME it comes back to Mundo vs Shyvana. As if those are the only two melee champions in the game. How about every time we talk about ranged fights we talk about Tristana and Kog'Maw?

Following that, what exactly is meant by "Riven blows you up when you try to disengage"? Are you saying Riven only blows you up when you try to disengage? Does she get to make an attack of opportunity? Are you saying that after being in melee you try to run away and she kills you? Much like half of what you say it's just meaningless words meant to convey the feeling that the big bad melee wolf is coming to get you. What's the difference between Riven running you down to finish you off and Ezreal running you down to finish you off? What about Lucian's chain hops? Tristana jumping on top of you to slow and kill you? Why is it specifically Riven we're talking about?

What is meant here exactly? I can't get away any meaning from it because you're just trying to put the names of melee champions together with things we hate and trying to make it seem like melee champions must be the things we hate. "The discussion is how to make melee champs more interesting rather than Riven blows you up when you try to disengage." Okay, so when Lucian hops after me when I'm low and kills me THAT'S interesting, but when Riven does it it's uninteresting? When Ezreal shifts after you and his EQ damage bursts down your last couple hundred HP that's interesting, but Riven doing it isn't? Were you hoping nobody was going to talk about that sentence but rather just go "you know he's right, melee IS uninteresting!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
I don't think I have the bandwidth to give my two cents on every melee in the game, but let me call out Jax as a melee who doesn't have the ball of stats problem IMO. He's cooldown limited, which gives him some powerful moments but also opportunities for counterplay. Another melee can make decisions about when to engage or what abilities to use based on the state of Jax's cooldowns. Jax can make similar decisions. Once you're making decisions, the duel is much more interesting. He's the most healthy of the ones you mentioned, again IMO. We don't think the Jax solution works for every champion though or that just leads to all melee feeling the same.
Jax is no longer competitively viable, so uh... I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. Are you trying to suggest that you can't remove ALL melee champions from competitive play? "We don't think the jax solution works for every champion thoughor that just leads to all melee feeling the same." ... yeah, all melee being removed from competitive play WOULD start to feel a little ****ty wouldn't it? This is honestly my least argumentative segment in here, and I'm intentionally avoiding your point, because you've just completely flabbergasted me here. I honestly don't even know what to say when you start talking about Jax as if he's some success story. "**** you" comes to mind but I'm trying to be professional.

More over this is the exact problem Jax had. He's a melee without anything outstandingly "overpowered" about him. He gap closes, dodges, tries to auto attack, does some damage, does some tanking, and that's it. His overpowered trait used to be his tankiness, now he sucks ass. Why? Because melee can't melee in LoL anymore. You can attack only so many times as you have a movement speed buff/have the enemy CC'd. After that it's red buff perma slow/support peel/enemy just being faster than you due to phantom dancer. So you say Jax is a great example of what you want to believe, and I say Jax is the great example of what is true. You can't just believe hard enough and make the game work like you think it does. Melee get forced out of melee pretty much IMMEDIATELY and only giant balls of stats will keep them competitive as is.

Though it does start to show me just how out of touch you are. Which is just raising questions in my head like "why does this guy have a job being the lead game designer if he doesn't even pay enough attention to notice that Jax's win rate over all brackets is at 46%, his winrate at high ELO comes close to 42%, and no competitive team will touch him?" I'm going to move on because this is just turning hateful. Deserved hate, but still hateful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
I'm not a fan of having "beginner champions." It does a disservice to players who really like that champion and feel like they can't have nice things because of players who might not even stick with the game. I'd say rather that there are aspects of Garen that are really popular (spin to win from brush) and we'd want to make sure to keep that in whatever work we did to him. I would have no problem raising his skill cap if we can keep those familiar aspects.
Nobody is all bad or all good, and this is one of your good moments here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
But the Shyvana - Mundo slap fight is exactly the concern
THIS IS GONNA BE MY LAST ONE because I was having fun sniping away at GC's comments. I mean god damn man do you even read what you type? You type so much that it's gonna happen eventually you're gonna say something wrong but it's legitimately like ... lets get back.

FIX SHYVANA. You think anyone walks out of the creep wave to get hit by a mundo cleaver? ****S HURTS YO. You think anyone walks up to Jax and just starts beating on him- COUNTER STRIKE. Shyvana is balanced on stupidity because she can't be smart, so she gets enough damage and survivability to be stupid. Then you take that and you run around parading this like you've won. HEY GUYS, SHYVANA IS EASY SO THE ENTIRE MELEE HALF OF THE GAME IS SKILL LESS.

Nobody sits next to Darius and lets him Q then. Nobody walks in to Jax counter strike. Nobody leaves the creep line and takes a Mundo cleaver. Nobody just walks up to Riven and lets her combo then. Nobody goes near a Renekton with 100 rage. Nobody tries to duke it out with Trynd in a caged death match. Nobody tries to out poke Olaf (well they do NOW...) Nobody trades with Malphite while his E is on them. Nobody attacks in to Fiora's parry. Nobody... you know what Udyr is **** anyway. Nobody lets Nasus free farm. Nobody stays to fight once Trundle has popped his ult. Nobody lets Zac just pick up all his blobs.

Yet you pretend this all doesn't exist because Shyvana does exist? Would removing Shyvana from the game make you so happy that you could admit melee is a bit more complicated than you say it is? Then remove her. Be done with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
But aren't those all issues that any champion has to deal with? It feels like ranged champs have to deal with all of that, plus the additional challenge of managing things like range, area effect, skill shots, rapid target switching afforded by range, and kiting. What additional parameters do melee characters have that ranged lack?
I know I said the last one would be the last but I read this again and I saw red. You act and believe so hard that there's no downside to being melee other than being melee. As if being ranged merely adds to your skill. As if kiting is inherit to range. Kiting is actually removed from many games through "engaged" mechanics, or turn speeds, or etc. LoL has removed everything about that and ENFORCES kiting.

Take a scenario. There's Yasuo, and there's 500 range Yasuo. 500 range Yasuo now has the added burden of being ranged and having to kite, right? Why? He's exactly like melee Yasuo, just that he's ranged. The burden has been placed ENTIRELY on melee Yasuo. He now has to find a way to ambush and use positioning to remove the advantage of range on ranged Yasuo. The skill requirement is ENTIRELY on melee Yasuo here. So why do you pretend like ranged Yasuo is some burdened down champion with added skill to his kit? Being a ranged champion does NOT mean you have to kite, only kiting champions have to kite.

In fact if you look at champions like Jayce and Nidalee you can easily see how intended design became completely overpowered in actual practice since their ranged forms allowed kiting which just obliterated melee in lane. The simply fact they CAN kite gives you so much less burden. Nidalee never has to do anything to win lane, she just has to stand back and throw spears all day. Her opponent is the one with the burden to actually make a play to win.

The burden of melee is being melee. It's the fact that I can't just run down mid lane and jump at a ranged champion since they'll just poke me down then run to a turret. It's the fact that I have to plan out every engagement to ensure my limited resource of gap closers isn't squandered. Ranged champions don't have limited ranged attacks. They don't suddenly run out. Yet every melee champion only has so many attacks they can do before their opponent is out of range. The fact that melee champions have to ensure they don't get sieged under turret mid game, that they don't get pushed under turret in the laning phase, that they don't eat up enough poke that they don't have the health to team fight. The fact that they have to position themselves that the opponents can't just peel them as they come with such easy moves as Thresh's E and Lulu's Q that just say "lol disengaged GG melee."

Your bias is so frustrating to deal with because it's not grounded in reality. You live in this fantasy world where every ranged champion is some downtrodden poor fellow just struggling to get by while the big burly football star melee player just charges in and wins every single situation if the ranged champion doesn't play it perfectly. How many times have I seen a Tristana just pop rapid fire and blow away an opponent who got in to melee with her simply because her damage is insane? How many times have I seen Vayne not even have to care about skill since there's only one single direction to tumble that would be bad (towards the enemy melee champion.) How many times have I seen Ziggs and Xerath just standing back throwing nukes only at danger if their front line crumbles and people come through? And yet it's the melee champion that takes no skill?

I'm playing Divinity Original Sin. I suggest you play it too.

Since I prooobably won't be here to respond to any red' that reply to this: If any red DOES reply to this immediately after reading their post stop and ask yourself the following question "What new information did I gain after reading this? What are their plans, what are they going to do?" You'll quickly find... nothing really. Very little.


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TeaVeeBag

Senior Member

07-25-2014

Downvote if you think I'm sexy.


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Ahri Main

Senior Member

07-25-2014

It's a shame they only respond to detailed and lengthy circle jerks of soft criticism and praise, or vague short opposition to their stance. thanks for your effort, but riot won't give any of these a retort. they'll just find someone who says "riots nerfing mele again gg" and respond to that.


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Just Me Irelia

Member

07-25-2014

what ???

but ghostcrawler told me melees are anti-fun second class citizens who shouldn't be on the same power level as the powerful and just ranged master race ._.


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CataclysmCrash

Senior Member

07-25-2014

I also find the itemization has been made incredibly stagnant over time, especially for bruisers. The incredibly poor selection and lack of variation in builds across champions is an issue that does go beyond specific classes.


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ARCDRIVEFINlSH

Member

07-25-2014

I hope GC buffs Tiamat.


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Logan Richardson

Senior Member

07-25-2014

tl;dr downvoted.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

07-25-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan Richardson View Post
tl;dr downvoted.
Thank you.


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Worst ofthe Best

Senior Member

07-25-2014

I read through all of it but I knew I wouldn't have to do that to know where your post was going.

+1

I hope you don't get downvotes for actually knowing what the **** you're talking about.


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AKA Vamp13

Senior Member

07-25-2014

liked, shared and subbed.


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