All (not so) Random All Mid

First Riot Post
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VictorianGenetix

Member

07-19-2014

I do agree with the system as a whole. it's just that for people like myself about a 4th of the games champions are just not fun to play as. For me 40 of the 50 some odd champions I don't own are just not fun to play for me and suck the fun out. And it's not even that I haven't played them I have played at least a game or 2 of every champ and tried several for more than that. Just don't care for em and don't find em fun or appealing. Getting stuck with them in ARAM will no doubt make me an ARAM dodger which I currently am not even when I get really meh ARAM champs I don't dodge. That is pretty much all I am voicing with my past post. I do get why the system would need to occur and happen, just slight dismay myself is all, that ARAM accounts would need to ruin the fun of ARAM for myself in multiple ways, right now because well it's cheating the system, and eventually when the system goes to all champs.

Again fully like the idea, and think it's a good thing for ARAM health. Just will be playing less or not at all / dodging when 1 of the 40 pop up is all.


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Arance

Senior Member

07-19-2014

One easy way to MASSIVELY improve reroll system that could be done right now would be to simply increase the number of stored rerolls. You can still limit players to only using two per game, but upping the total storage to 10 or 20 would be a huge reward for those who have a high number of champions and cap out of rr points too quickly.

Granted, if you made all champs available on ARAM as is being discussed this may or may not be a good direction to go for that, but given the way ARAM currently functions, storing extra reroll would be a very nice boon.


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Palaside

Senior Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Tiki View Post
Thanks for discussing all this folks! Here are some of my thoughts on what's being talked about. Disclaimer that I'm not a designer, just an ARAM player with a vested interest in the mode

Altering champ selection based on win rates: This could definitely make the core experience nicer in some ways (I could do with less Sona's showing up in queue myself) but I feel like it's no longer ARAM at that point. Much as I don't love certain team comps, I still like the overall concept enough to roll the dice and see what I get. Also games are short enough that I'm OK with it. Would want to do some research (big shock) on this and talk with actual designers on the long term implications.

Hybrids of all champs available & only your champs available: Even though this would likely thin out the # of games where you or your opponents have a seriously OP comp I still think it wouldn't address a core problem. Namely that when I see the enemy team with a super OP comp, can I trust it was because of randomness and we all had a fair chance at getting that comp? If I can't, a part of me wants to rage and it ruins the experience overall.

Seeing opponents beforehand: Unfortunately I think this would make queue dodging worse. I suspect a significant # of players would dodge if they saw the enemy team ultimately rolled something better.

Draft pick all random: Again, a pretty different mode, but an interesting one! I wonder if players would actually pick "bad" ARAM champs into the mix in hopes of the other team getting them, or if everyone would just pick OP champs and hope for more. I think the later one is more likely, but I think the former would be really cool.

I personally love the craziness that ARAM brings, even if I get my share of crappy team comps. I like being forced to play champs I don't love, I like playing awesome ARAM champs, and mostly I like seeing variety. One thing ARAM can bring that is tough with SR & other modes is consistent variety. There are so many champs and I love the thought that they can all get some play.

Love the discussion on all this!

p.s. I love me some Yorick in ARAM

I agree with everything you say here i find these ideas very interesting, but one idea i 100% disagree with from my own personal experience is the idea of "variety" in ARAM. I consistently get the same handful of champions and consistently see the same handful of champions. Very rarely i a get champ in my game that isn't part of that handful. Maybe its due to rerolls and the odds that people generally end up (and keep) the same champions which could very well be it (if that makes sense), but there are times where i go 5-6 ARAM games seeing a Master Yi (this could be just because he's one champ that everyone owns so its more likely to be picked).

Basically what I'm trying to say is, I personally haven't seen all too much variety in ARAM. Maybe its just my luck or by weird chance.. i love the game mode and all but sometimes it truly does feel a bit rigged in the "Random" aspect of it.

Not complaining or anything just voicing my opinions, however i trust you guys and believe when you say its not rigged, just how it feels sometimes.


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perilX

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Junior Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Tiki View Post
I think exposing players to more champs is probably a good thing in the long run, but not at the expense of a really poor initial experience.
This is, fundamentally, where we split paths. Those of us that truly LOVE ARAM believe the game mode shouldn't be about the convenience of playing things you are comfortable with but rather the chance (hence, random) of getting things you aren't. This, naturally, means your opponents will have this same draw.

Of course exposing players to the whole pool would be beneficial in the long run, across all modes. Playing champions is an easy way to learn matchups which in turn gives you information to take with you to SR. The cost of a poor initial experience to those of us not particularly apt in the mode is a small price to pay for a quality experience for those that spend a lot of time in the ARAMs.

As someone that owns all champions, it's unfortunate that we are penalized for not having the foresight of restricting our champion purchases to succeed in a game mode that we really ended up adoring. I really don't see a true downside to enabling all champions IMMEDIATELY that could possibly hold a candle to improving the game mode for people that almost exclusively play said mode. And if MMR really works, people that can't adapt wont be facing those of that can.


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Mattarias

Senior Member

07-19-2014

Why not just make every champ available on ARAM? That would be sweet.

Heck, include the 150 RP skin unlock thing too.


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BluePolarizer

Senior Member

07-19-2014

I would like to say that if ARAM was truly random, or random from the total pool of all owned champions by all players in the game (like how ranked bans have a pool), many players would have incentives to buy a champion they didn't think about buying before when they find out they actually like that champion's playstyle.


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ShadoHeart

Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4T3NCY View Post
You're absolutely right here. The reroll system is one of many facets we would need to revisit before implementing something like this. We agree that simply switching on ALL champs in ARAM with it's current shape, would not feel very good. If/when we do it, we want to do it right. ^.^o
What if you designed to where if you did re-roll, you would only get a random champion that you personally own? Maybe that could work?


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Mountain Warden

Member

07-20-2014

A couple of points I want to make:

1) I love the idea of making all champs available to even the playing field a little bit. I don't share the concern that allowing players to play unfamiliar champs would be a negative experience. If such players want to play specific champs, there's always SR. Playing unknown champs is part of the fun. After all, there's the free champ rotation where I usually only own 1 or 2 leaving the rest as new less familiar champions. That doesn't lessen the experience imho.

2) I'm tired of queue dodging. I think the penalty for dodging should be increased. After all, ARAM is not ranked play and the outcome of an ARAM match weights a lot less than ranked play on SR. The constant dodging wastes a lot of time when I just want to play. I also get annoyed when one player makes the decision for everybody else that team comp is not good enough. I've seen really oddball team comps stomp the other team when given the proper chance. An yeah sometimes your playing 4 melee champs against all the poke in the world, but it's not a big deal. You lose in 20 mins and try again.

3) Unrelated to the first two, I'd like to know if there are some bugs in the RNG for aram champ selection. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who noticed that certain champs (different for each player) get picked way more often. I seem to play Nasus, Warwick and Eve way more often than they should be given the number of champs available to me. Just thought I'd ask.

Overall I play a lot of ARAM and would love to see the improvements previously discussed to reinvigorate the spirit of this awesome game mode.


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L4T3NCY

Lead Designer
Featured Game Mode

07-20-2014
5 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palaside View Post
I agree with everything you say here i find these ideas very interesting, but one idea i 100% disagree with from my own personal experience is the idea of "variety" in ARAM. I consistently get the same handful of champions and consistently see the same handful of champions. Very rarely i a get champ in my game that isn't part of that handful. Maybe its due to rerolls and the odds that people generally end up (and keep) the same champions which could very well be it (if that makes sense), but there are times where i go 5-6 ARAM games seeing a Master Yi (this could be just because he's one champ that everyone owns so its more likely to be picked).

Basically what I'm trying to say is, I personally haven't seen all too much variety in ARAM. Maybe its just my luck or by weird chance.. i love the game mode and all but sometimes it truly does feel a bit rigged in the "Random" aspect of it.

Not complaining or anything just voicing my opinions, however i trust you guys and believe when you say its not rigged, just how it feels sometimes.
ARAM's champ select RNG is not 'rigged' by any means, but certain players are curtailing their champion pools to gain an unfair advantage in what should be a random (there's that word again) experience. This is the cause of your Master Yi déjà vu.

Also, to the general sentiment here RE queue-dodgers, we would like to do everything possible to discourage them. Harsher penalties are one valid path, but we should consider the reasons for queue-dodging too. Some players are simply just gonna dodge until they roll a Lux. :/ But others might be doing it due to the perceived unfairness in champ pool selection, which is something we could realistically have a chance at mitigating. As someone who used to play ARAM back when it was a custom game mode on SR and the rules were a "gentlemen's agreement", I feel like we've taken some Cloud Giant sized steps forward on queue dodging, but of course, could still improve on player's experiences even more. We should all be spending less time in champ select, and more time on the Abyss! \>o<

TL;DR:
Queue-dodging is a shortcut to Frowntown for everyone. Don't go there guys. Everyone is frowning. Like this-> :(


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Angler Jax

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Senior Member

07-20-2014

rito secks