All (not so) Random All Mid

First Riot Post
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Final Raid Boss

Senior Member

07-19-2014

yep all champions should definitely be available in arams, because right now it's not random at all unless you own every single champ. i don't even see the negative side to it because you're playing 1 champion out of 119 for 1 game, knowing everyone is getting a completely random champion would make this mode a lot more fun than it is right now


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SwiftSwrd

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Senior Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Tiki View Post
Can't stress enough how much the above is not the case. I believe L4T3NCY was referring more specifically to how the re-roll system in its current state doesn't necessarily work as well in a situation where all the champs are unlocked. Imagine 2 situations:

1. Current situation, player has a limited amount of champs available in ARAM (assuming it's a non-ARAM only account). These are likely Champions they are familiar with or have been interested in at some point, even if they're not great ARAM champs. Rerolls will consistently get them something they are likely to know.

2. Unlocked situation, player has access to all champs available in ARAM. The day this gets turned on, you're likely to start playing with a slew of unfamiliar characters. This isn't necessarily a bad thing in the long run, but it is very different. Your re-rolls mean something a little different now. Instead of rolling out of a champ you don't want to play into another you're familiar with, you're much more likely to get another champ you don't know which can feel pretty disruptive.

If we're going to design something new, we want to keep that second player experience in mind. I think exposing players to more champs is probably a good thing in the long run, but not at the expense of a really poor initial experience. Don't know the exact solution, but it likely revolves around revamping the re-roll system in some way to give players a little more control, or some alternative that meets the same need.

Anyway, as someone who plays a LOT of ARAM I'm pretty passionate, if we do ever do this I want us to approach it in a way that feels good for my fellow ARAM players
Simple fix: Just divide the two demographics somehow. People with under 50 champs unlocked have to roll from all the champs. Or how about people who haven't bought a new champion in a year? There's probably a better divider, but these two wouldn't be horrible and I came up with them as I wrote this post.


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Dr Clueless PhD

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Senior Member

07-19-2014

Actually, here's an idea. If your concern is for people getting Champions they're unfamiliar with and it being unpleasant, how does this sound:

Once you hit level 30, all Champions become available in ARAM. Until then, you can play the ones you own and know. Level 30 seems reasonable to me. If you're experienced enough to play Ranked and tank your way down to Bronze 5, you should be experienced enough for a true All Random.


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Dish TGFTV

Junior Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Tiki View Post
Can't stress enough how much the above is not the case. I believe L4T3NCY was referring more specifically to how the re-roll system in its current state doesn't necessarily work as well in a situation where all the champs are unlocked. Imagine 2 situations:

1. Current situation, player has a limited amount of champs available in ARAM (assuming it's a non-ARAM only account). These are likely Champions they are familiar with or have been interested in at some point, even if they're not great ARAM champs. Rerolls will consistently get them something they are likely to know.

2. Unlocked situation, player has access to all champs available in ARAM. The day this gets turned on, you're likely to start playing with a slew of unfamiliar characters. This isn't necessarily a bad thing in the long run, but it is very different. Your re-rolls mean something a little different now. Instead of rolling out of a champ you don't want to play into another you're familiar with, you're much more likely to get another champ you don't know which can feel pretty disruptive.

If we're going to design something new, we want to keep that second player experience in mind. I think exposing players to more champs is probably a good thing in the long run, but not at the expense of a really poor initial experience. Don't know the exact solution, but it likely revolves around revamping the re-roll system in some way to give players a little more control, or some alternative that meets the same need.

Anyway, as someone who plays a LOT of ARAM I'm pretty passionate, if we do ever do this I want us to approach it in a way that feels good for my fellow ARAM players
I'm not sure if this has been suggested yet, but I have an idea: a player's initial roll for a champion is picked from all champions in the game, while using a reroll will pick a champ from the player's owned champs + the free week champs. It would easily slow down ARAM-specific accounts with only a few champs since they would need to reroll to get one of their owned champs, and the low number of champs on the accounts would stifle their ability to reroll and get owned champs. It might be detrimental to newer players who haven't gotten a good number of champs yet, but it's the best solution I can come up with.


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IS1330ca164c1e976181edd

Senior Member

07-19-2014

@Riot ; please let me ask a design question.

Why are people getting a new champ in the ARAM mode WHILE they doged the last champ selection? I don't really see a reason for this, it just benefits those who don't like playing either certain champs (I can partly understand this, I really really hate playing Evelynn) or want something with power and fun (-> poke champs like Lux).

The initial purpose of this mode was it to be random, so I don't understand why people are allowed to re-randomizing their champs by dodging.


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Cindikle

Senior Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Tiki View Post
Can't stress enough how much the above is not the case. I believe L4T3NCY was referring more specifically to how the re-roll system in its current state doesn't necessarily work as well in a situation where all the champs are unlocked. Imagine 2 situations:

1. Current situation, player has a limited amount of champs available in ARAM (assuming it's a non-ARAM only account). These are likely Champions they are familiar with or have been interested in at some point, even if they're not great ARAM champs. Rerolls will consistently get them something they are likely to know.

2. Unlocked situation, player has access to all champs available in ARAM. The day this gets turned on, you're likely to start playing with a slew of unfamiliar characters. This isn't necessarily a bad thing in the long run, but it is very different. Your re-rolls mean something a little different now. Instead of rolling out of a champ you don't want to play into another you're familiar with, you're much more likely to get another champ you don't know which can feel pretty disruptive.

If we're going to design something new, we want to keep that second player experience in mind. I think exposing players to more champs is probably a good thing in the long run, but not at the expense of a really poor initial experience. Don't know the exact solution, but it likely revolves around revamping the re-roll system in some way to give players a little more control, or some alternative that meets the same need.

Anyway, as someone who plays a LOT of ARAM I'm pretty passionate, if we do ever do this I want us to approach it in a way that feels good for my fellow ARAM players

Allow Rerolls to only reroll your own champion pool.

Remove the free bonus to reroll points. Reduce required reroll points to 200.

ARAM only accounts will still have an advantage when they reroll. But someone with every champion will be able to reroll more often.

Or

Rerolling two times in a row always gives an owned champion.


A 3rd option I've posted before is take the winrate of every champion and average them for each champion a player owns. Your MMR is adjusted based on this %. As well as try to add a 2nd factor of being grouped with players of similiar champion pools.

While it is likely the win %'s will average out a little more, but I don't think they'll change much. Sona/Ziggs are still going to be very strong.


While it's on topic. Another thing I'd like to throw out is a change to our trinket slot to new items.

1. Sweeper
@level 5 - Throws a cloud of dust on targeted area, granting vision and showing traps. 3 minute cooldown.
@level 10 - Upgraded to show invisible players. Cooldown reduced, AoE increased. Cooldown reduced to 2 minutes.
@level 15 - Upgraded to passively show traps. Cooldown reduced to 1 minute.
Players detected by this items active cannot detected by it again for 20 seconds.

2. Torch
@level 5 - Damaging a target under 40% health is effected by Grievous Wounds for 1.5 seconds.
@level 10 - Upgraded to have an activation that grants your next ability to apply Grievous Wounds for 2 seconds. 2 minute cooldown.
@level 15 - Upgraded to increase active duration to 5 seconds. Cooldown decreased.
Players effected by the active of this ability cannot be effected again for 10 seconds. Active cooldown reduced to 1 minute.

3. Needle
@level 5 - 5-20% of your damage pierces shields base on how much health they have. (Pierces more at high HP)
@level 10 - Upgrades to have an activation that allows all of your attacks to pierce 50% of a shield for 5 seconds. (This doesn't reduce amount absorbed) 2 minute cooldown.
@level 15 - Upgrades to allow allies to pierce 10% of your target's shield for 3 seconds after you attack. Only one enemy champion can be effected by this at a time and does not effect your damage. Active cooldown reduced to 1 minute.

4. Tears of Morgana's Victims(lack of better name)
@level 5 - Reduced the duration of the next crowd control ability that hits you by 50%. This cannot occur more than once every. This does not stack with other Tenacity values. 3 minute internal cooldown.
@level 10 - Upgraded to have an activation that grants Tenacity for 8 seconds. This does not stack with Tenacity on items. 2 minute cooldown. Passive cooldown reduced to 2 minutes.
@level 15 - Upgraded to increase active duration to 12 seconds. Grants immunity to slows for 3 seconds. Active and Passive cooldowns reduced to 1 minute.

5. Orb of Winter
@level 3 - Grants a shield that absorbs 30(+10 per level). This is refreshed after not taking damage for 15 seconds. Does not stack with Orb of Winter.
@level 9 - Upgraded to reduce passive cooldown to 9 seconds. Now has an active that shares this shield with the group. Total group wide absorption cannot surpass total current personal shield. 2 minute cooldown on active.
@level 15 - Activation grants effected allies 10% damage reduction from AoE effects for 2 seconds. Allies effected by this cannot be effected again for 10 seconds. Cooldown on active reduced to 1 minute.

6. Guardian's Horn
@level 3 - Activation grants 10 armor and 10 magic resist as well as 30% movement speed for 1 second. Costs 40 stacks. Grants 1 stack for every nearby ally ability used. 2 for every enemy ability used. Can hold up to 60 stacks.
@level 9 - Upgrades activation to 20 armor and 20 magic resist. Stack cost reduced to 30.
@level 15 - Upgrades activation to grant immunity to activating traps for 2 seconds.

I think this would add a lot of strategy and counter strategy. Only one that really concerns me is an ADC getting Guardian's Horn. Maybe increased stack cost.


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Penteract

Member

07-19-2014

I'm glad this thread has been looked at by the reds.

I have bought/unlocked every champion, and it seems i get more "suboptimal" champions than anything else. And when i don't, someone else does and someone dodges. That's fine, i don't rage at dodgers anymore, it's kind of become the way of aram. Some team comps just lose and they are easy to spot. Yorick, Vlad, Akali, Garen and Rammus? Who wouldn't dodge out of that? It's even worse when you just say "**** it" and stay with your terrible team comp and then the other team is Nid, Lux, Sona, Nami and Cait. 10 min victories and losses are not interesting for anyone. I hate getting a great champ and then roflstomp the other team before buying a single item. What's the point?

I have a couple ideas:

1. ARAM is no longer blind - You can see the other team, you can now reroll more intelligently. A pick you might reroll before may now be good to keep as they are a counter to something on the other team. , or vice versa. You reroll something you may have kept before as they would get totally shut down by something they have. And you can now set up your masteries and runes more effectively. I really hate getting tanks and having the wrong masteries picked up and getting blown up anyway because i got the aoe reduction instead of the crit reduction and the enemy team consists of jinx, yasuo and ashe. And if people dodge, well, nothing really changes.

2. ARAM Draft - A pool of 15 champs are selected. Captains ban 2 each. Then players pick them in order. Guarentees that no one team gets ALL the priority picks (provided your captain knows what he's doing). I don't really know who rerolls would work, maybe give last pick the choice of rerolling? Maybe the last 2 picks?


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Riot Tiki

User Research

07-19-2014
4 of 5 Riot Posts

Thanks for discussing all this folks! Here are some of my thoughts on what's being talked about. Disclaimer that I'm not a designer, just an ARAM player with a vested interest in the mode

Altering champ selection based on win rates: This could definitely make the core experience nicer in some ways (I could do with less Sona's showing up in queue myself) but I feel like it's no longer ARAM at that point. Much as I don't love certain team comps, I still like the overall concept enough to roll the dice and see what I get. Also games are short enough that I'm OK with it. Would want to do some research (big shock) on this and talk with actual designers on the long term implications.

Hybrids of all champs available & only your champs available: Even though this would likely thin out the # of games where you or your opponents have a seriously OP comp I still think it wouldn't address a core problem. Namely that when I see the enemy team with a super OP comp, can I trust it was because of randomness and we all had a fair chance at getting that comp? If I can't, a part of me wants to rage and it ruins the experience overall.

Seeing opponents beforehand: Unfortunately I think this would make queue dodging worse. I suspect a significant # of players would dodge if they saw the enemy team ultimately rolled something better.

Draft pick all random: Again, a pretty different mode, but an interesting one! I wonder if players would actually pick "bad" ARAM champs into the mix in hopes of the other team getting them, or if everyone would just pick OP champs and hope for more. I think the later one is more likely, but I think the former would be really cool.

I personally love the craziness that ARAM brings, even if I get my share of crappy team comps. I like being forced to play champs I don't love, I like playing awesome ARAM champs, and mostly I like seeing variety. One thing ARAM can bring that is tough with SR & other modes is consistent variety. There are so many champs and I love the thought that they can all get some play.

Love the discussion on all this!

p.s. I love me some Yorick in ARAM


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RainbowWindslash

Senior Member

07-19-2014

I just played an ARAM this morning lolkinged the enemy after the game to see 4 ARAM accounts -_-


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Sivir Boob

Member

07-19-2014

1. Enable all champions: It will truly be random.
2. Enable mirror match-ups: There will be less dodging. If you snagged all the top "tier" champions, theres a chance for the enemy to have same champs as well. Because right now as it stands, if noone on your team has any of the top "tier" champs, theres a high percent chance that the enemy team has them all.