All (not so) Random All Mid

First Riot Post
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Linna Excel

Senior Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4T3NCY View Post
Heya guys ^_^/

This is definitely something that is on our radar. We also agree from a design perspective, that ARAM-only accounts manufacture a disingenuous experience, and aren't in the true spirit of ARAM (the "R" stands for Random btw).

Much like the game modes on other maps, certain champs in ARAM trend to being more effective and separate into perceived 'tiers'. The issue is the asymmetrical champ selection experience that 'ARAM-only accounts' create. In all other modes, when picking, you have an equal opportunity to choose champs you want as the other team does. ARAM-only accounts undermine this by giving a statistical advantage of hitting those 'tier champs' compared to other players. Here lies the crux of the unfairness.

Making ALL champions available on ARAM is likely to contribute a net positive to the overall sustainable health of ARAM as a game mode, but there are still many things to consider. There is so much energy and passion from you guys surrounding ARAM, we want to do justice to that spirit and not just pull a trigger without thinking.

Personally, I like the idea of making all champions available in ARAM games, and hope this is something we can eventually take a closer look at to find a healthy solution. ^_-
The problem with making all champs available is there is a reason I don't own some on my one and only account. I don't like them and I can't play them very well when I get them. So if I'm suddenly stuck with playing champs I don't own and I don't like, I'm just going to leave the mode as that'll make me bitter and resentful towards it.

I hate it enough when I get one of the week's free champs that I don't own in ARAM as it is.

I also hate getting stuck with some champs multiple times in a row. One day a single champ came up for me 4 times... I own close to 30 and I played only 6-7 games that day. Your RNG stinks. I wish my favorite champ would come up 4 times in a row, but no. It has to be ryze or sejuani.

Also is random random?

Or is random not random?


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Riot Tiki

User Research

07-19-2014
3 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterOfTheOrder View Post
I'm not trying to be a jerk here… but all I understood from that was "these are good reasons, but the only reason it'll never happen is because we want you to buy the champs instead".

I may only feel that way because what you wrote is EXACTLY what I would say instead.
Can't stress enough how much the above is not the case. I believe L4T3NCY was referring more specifically to how the re-roll system in its current state doesn't necessarily work as well in a situation where all the champs are unlocked. Imagine 2 situations:

1. Current situation, player has a limited amount of champs available in ARAM (assuming it's a non-ARAM only account). These are likely Champions they are familiar with or have been interested in at some point, even if they're not great ARAM champs. Rerolls will consistently get them something they are likely to know.

2. Unlocked situation, player has access to all champs available in ARAM. The day this gets turned on, you're likely to start playing with a slew of unfamiliar characters. This isn't necessarily a bad thing in the long run, but it is very different. Your re-rolls mean something a little different now. Instead of rolling out of a champ you don't want to play into another you're familiar with, you're much more likely to get another champ you don't know which can feel pretty disruptive.

If we're going to design something new, we want to keep that second player experience in mind. I think exposing players to more champs is probably a good thing in the long run, but not at the expense of a really poor initial experience. Don't know the exact solution, but it likely revolves around revamping the re-roll system in some way to give players a little more control, or some alternative that meets the same need.

Anyway, as someone who plays a LOT of ARAM I'm pretty passionate, if we do ever do this I want us to approach it in a way that feels good for my fellow ARAM players


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Jace77

Senior Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Tiki View Post
Can't stress enough how much the above is not the case. I believe L4T3NCY was referring more specifically to how the re-roll system in its current state doesn't necessarily work as well in a situation where all the champs are unlocked. Imagine 2 situations:

1. Current situation, player has a limited amount of champs available in ARAM (assuming it's a non-ARAM only account). These are likely Champions they are familiar with or have been interested in at some point, even if they're not great ARAM champs. Rerolls will consistently get them something they are likely to know.

2. Unlocked situation, player has access to all champs available in ARAM. The day this gets turned on, you're likely to start playing with a slew of unfamiliar characters. This isn't necessarily a bad thing in the long run, but it is very different. Your re-rolls mean something a little different now. Instead of rolling out of a champ you don't want to play into another you're familiar with, you're much more likely to get another champ you don't know which can feel pretty disruptive.

If we're going to design something new, we want to keep that second player experience in mind. I think exposing players to more champs is probably a good thing in the long run, but not at the expense of a really poor initial experience. Don't know the exact solution, but it likely revolves around revamping the re-roll system in some way to give players a little more control, or some alternative that meets the same need.

Anyway, as someone who plays a LOT of ARAM I'm pretty passionate, if we do ever do this I want us to approach it in a way that feels good for my fellow ARAM players


what if there were 2 types of re-rolls?

the current version updated for a consistent re-roll pattern knowing everyone has all champs unlocked (i currently earn 1 re-roll every 2 games starting at 0 points. maybe it should be less frequent or based on # of games played instead of a point system).

and a second that is much harder to earn (more than 2 games) with a capacity of 1 that uses 1 of each type of re-roll to give a champion that is actually owned by that player. OR has been played by that player multiple times.


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Hyrum Graff

Senior Member

07-19-2014

Hey, I'd like to pop in with an idea for a temporary solution: give each champ a "power ranking." Then, just balance the teams by power rating. If someone rerolls, they get a champ with a similar power ranking.

It won't prevent people from making ARAM accounts, but it will at least ensure that the other team is equally OP - the power rankings don't even need to be perfect: any improvement, is an improvement.

Is it a good long-term solution? No, because it's no longer All RANDOM All Mid. But I think it should make for a better experience in the meantime.


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slusho

Senior Member

07-19-2014

As someone that owns 95 champs and plays ARAM, I am not a fan of the current system. Sure I get a re-roll every 2 games, or 2 re-rolls every 4 games, but I feel its still disadvantageous comparatively those who own less champs currently such as ARAM accounts by having a smaller pool, therefore having a higher chance to roll a beneficial champ.

Additionally I do not like that the free champion rotation has great influence over the game type. I've seen games where 5+ champs are the free champions for the week after numerous consecutive games.

I personally would like all champs to be available and with no influence from weekly free champions.

My suggestions would be to have 1 free re-roll every game per person (but penalize dodgers with a 3 game re-roll lockout) Then allow additional re-rolls available (between 2-4) that have a static refill rate (1 re-roll per 3 games). Then reward players for owning champions by giving them a refill bonus for playing as a champion they physically own (such as a double refill charge for the game).

This gives incentive to own more champions while granting reasonable conditions for people that own less champions.


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Hatch RawerBeryl

Senior Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4T3NCY View Post
This is definitely something that is on our radar.
Ah man, I could really do without that phrase. It usually precedes the idea in question getting scrapped.


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Lady Yunaverse

Member

07-19-2014

I think this idea makes 100% sense, especially if players abuse the system to get easy wins.

Imagine a team of marksmen/Mages/support vs fighters/tanks. No matter how good you are, you cannot do much against 5 champs poking you while you run towards them...


On the other hand this gives everyone an even chance of getting good and bad champions. Just one example...


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Dr Clueless PhD

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Senior Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Tiki View Post
Can't stress enough how much the above is not the case. I believe L4T3NCY was referring more specifically to how the re-roll system in its current state doesn't necessarily work as well in a situation where all the champs are unlocked. Imagine 2 situations:

1. Current situation, player has a limited amount of champs available in ARAM (assuming it's a non-ARAM only account). These are likely Champions they are familiar with or have been interested in at some point, even if they're not great ARAM champs. Rerolls will consistently get them something they are likely to know.

2. Unlocked situation, player has access to all champs available in ARAM. The day this gets turned on, you're likely to start playing with a slew of unfamiliar characters. This isn't necessarily a bad thing in the long run, but it is very different. Your re-rolls mean something a little different now. Instead of rolling out of a champ you don't want to play into another you're familiar with, you're much more likely to get another champ you don't know which can feel pretty disruptive.

If we're going to design something new, we want to keep that second player experience in mind. I think exposing players to more champs is probably a good thing in the long run, but not at the expense of a really poor initial experience. Don't know the exact solution, but it likely revolves around revamping the re-roll system in some way to give players a little more control, or some alternative that meets the same need.

Anyway, as someone who plays a LOT of ARAM I'm pretty passionate, if we do ever do this I want us to approach it in a way that feels good for my fellow ARAM players
Maybe I'm cold, but I don't see any issue in the second experience. If you're not willing to play around with more than 5 characters, why play a game with over a hundred? Hell, my friends and I learned how to play DotA back in the day by playing ARDM. Random character, and when you die, you get another random character. You learned what everyone did, or you went down in flames.


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Penteano

Senior Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Tiki View Post
Can't stress enough how much the above is not the case. I believe L4T3NCY was referring more specifically to how the re-roll system in its current state doesn't necessarily work as well in a situation where all the champs are unlocked. Imagine 2 situations:

1. Current situation, player has a limited amount of champs available in ARAM (assuming it's a non-ARAM only account). These are likely Champions they are familiar with or have been interested in at some point, even if they're not great ARAM champs. Rerolls will consistently get them something they are likely to know.

2. Unlocked situation, player has access to all champs available in ARAM. The day this gets turned on, you're likely to start playing with a slew of unfamiliar characters. This isn't necessarily a bad thing in the long run, but it is very different. Your re-rolls mean something a little different now. Instead of rolling out of a champ you don't want to play into another you're familiar with, you're much more likely to get another champ you don't know which can feel pretty disruptive.

If we're going to design something new, we want to keep that second player experience in mind. I think exposing players to more champs is probably a good thing in the long run, but not at the expense of a really poor initial experience. Don't know the exact solution, but it likely revolves around revamping the re-roll system in some way to give players a little more control, or some alternative that meets the same need.

Anyway, as someone who plays a LOT of ARAM I'm pretty passionate, if we do ever do this I want us to approach it in a way that feels good for my fellow ARAM players
Would be so hard to separate ARAM only accounts tho? I mean they are probably "high elo" as they easy win. Count the number of champions they have, check if they are the "ops" in that mode and put them in a secret queue with only ARAM-only accounts.
I say that because I'm not a fan of having to play all champions. I simply don't have interest in all champions in this game. I pretty much bought all I wanted and I think it's less than 30 (I'm a Dom player, get into ARAM if a lose streat comes or matchmaking go crazy as it happens sometimes). The others I'd never try to play and it's frustrating when I have one of them because I never played or did it only once, it's not fun at all for me or my teamates


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Rastamon Ganja

Senior Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4T3NCY View Post
Heya guys ^_^/

This is definitely something that is on our radar. We also agree from a design perspective, that ARAM-only accounts manufacture a disingenuous experience, and aren't in the true spirit of ARAM (the "R" stands for Random btw).

Much like the game modes on other maps, certain champs in ARAM trend to being more effective and separate into perceived 'tiers'. The issue is the asymmetrical champ selection experience that 'ARAM-only accounts' create. In all other modes, when picking, you have an equal opportunity to choose champs you want as the other team does. ARAM-only accounts undermine this by giving a statistical advantage of hitting those 'tier champs' compared to other players. Here lies the crux of the unfairness.

Making ALL champions available on ARAM is likely to contribute a net positive to the overall sustainable health of ARAM as a game mode, but there are still many things to consider. There is so much energy and passion from you guys surrounding ARAM, we want to do justice to that spirit and not just pull a trigger without thinking.

Personally, I like the idea of making all champions available in ARAM games, and hope this is something we can eventually take a closer look at to find a healthy solution. ^_-
so it went from soon (tm) to eventually (tm)? Does that mean anywhere from 6 months from now to 2035?