All (not so) Random All Mid

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Critmaster Garen

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Senior Member

07-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4T3NCY View Post
, but there are still many things to consider.
like what?


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Zielmann

Senior Member

07-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyMage View Post
This isn't going to end the qq... there will still be wildly unbalanced teams. At any rate, the ARAM-only smurfs would eventually only be facing each other as they climbed. I doubt people on the low end of the ARAM mmr pool have to face these über accounts as much as they think.
I've always countered this argument this way:
'Balance' can mean different things in different modes. ARAM is not and never was intended to be balanced from a standpoint of champion viability and team comp. Part of what you're signing up with in a random mode is simply that: the random aspect. You learn to accept that sometimes the other team will get a stronger comp. Sometimes you will. Sometimes the game will be a one-sided stomp. Sometimes it's a tough, drawn-out contest.

So what is 'balance' in ARAM? It's a balance of the random factor itself. With ARAM-dedicated accounts, these players are skewing the 'random' in their favor, especially when you take rerolls into account. I think there's no way to argue that the most 'balanced' random is not for every player to be working from the exact same pool of champions, regardless of who they own. Whether they choose to make it the overall champion pool of every player in that game combined, or just make all champions free to play outright in the mode, at least every player's 'random' for that game is the same.


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GANDHISAUCE

Junior Member

07-18-2014

Dodging is the worst problem in high mmr ARAM. Getting rid of ARAM accounts doesn't solve this at all and probably makes it worse. Sitting in q for 30+ minutes of dodging is no good, especially when people always wait until last second hoping someone else will dodge =[


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SpookyMage

Senior Member

07-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zielmann View Post
I've always countered this argument this way:
'Balance' can mean different things in different modes. ARAM is not and never was intended to be balanced from a standpoint of champion viability and team comp. Part of what you're signing up with in a random mode is simply that: the random aspect. You learn to accept that sometimes the other team will get a stronger comp. Sometimes you will. Sometimes the game will be a one-sided stomp. Sometimes it's a tough, drawn-out contest.

So what is 'balance' in ARAM? It's a balance of the random factor itself. With ARAM-dedicated accounts, these players are skewing the 'random' in their favor, especially when you take rerolls into account. I think there's no way to argue that the most 'balanced' random is not for every player to be working from the exact same pool of champions, regardless of who they own. Whether they choose to make it the overall champion pool of every player in that game combined, or just make all champions free to play outright in the mode, at least every player's 'random' for that game is the same.
That's a pretty good post on the sense of the word balanced, but the argument itself hinges on the idea that ARAM is supposed to be balanced by any standard.

And, I'd like to reiterate that it is only imbalanced (even by your understanding of balance) if you're consistently having players who aren't on optimized ARAM accounts being grouped on the same team while facing players who are on optimized ARAM accounts—which doesn't happen all that often.


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Zielmann

Senior Member

07-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyMage View Post
That's a pretty good post on the sense of the word balanced, but the argument itself hinges on the idea that ARAM is supposed to be balanced by any standard.

And, I'd like to reiterate that it is only imbalanced (even by your understanding of balance) if you're consistently having players who aren't on optimized ARAM accounts being grouped on the same team while facing players who are on optimized ARAM accounts—which doesn't happen all that often.
You bring up something that I kinda forgot to mention, and that's more that I would consider 'fair' being the better word for it, as opposed to 'balanced'. I think that everybody drawing from the same pool is the most fair way to have the game set up.

On the second point, I think it might happen more than you think. My friends and I play ARAMs a lot. None of us have ARAM-dedicated accounts. Admittedly, my account is probably the most skewed toward ARAM, because I've been playing almost only ARAM for a long time now. That, and a lot of the champions typically considered 'bad' in ARAM are simply not the type of champion that I feel compelled to play or buy to begin with. However, I do still have 86 champions unlocked at this point, so it's hardly to the point of the ultra-restrictive ARAM-only accounts that are out there.

Anyhow, when playing with my friends, we do tend to see quite a few accounts that I would presume to be ARAM-only. Of course, that can be hard to verify, but you can get hints by looking at their profiles. Frankly, since we're often running as a 3-, 4-, or 5- man premade, I would think that our advantage in communication is probably the only reason we've won some of our games when we have the 'inferior' team comp.


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Garbanzo

Member

07-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4T3NCY View Post
You're absolutely right here. The reroll system is one of many facets we would need to revisit before implementing something like this. We agree that simply switching on ALL champs in ARAM with it's current shape, would not feel very good. If/when we do it, we want to do it right. ^.^o

If/when?

Why would you release a PERMANENT game mode and not pay attention to how it plays out? -1 Rito, please learn that 20 minutes is a serious amount of time


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Eotw

Senior Member

07-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izbiz View Post
Agreed. But, for example:

I don't play ARAM. Ever. 0% of the time
My buddy plays only ARAM. 100% of the time

He gets forced to play champions without being able to practice them while I do not. Is it fair to those who play ARAM?
A little change in perspective is all you need.


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SaltyTeemo4Life

Senior Member

07-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4T3NCY View Post
Heya guys ^_^/

This is definitely something that is on our radar. We also agree from a design perspective, that ARAM-only accounts manufacture a disingenuous experience, and aren't in the true spirit of ARAM (the "R" stands for Random btw).

Much like the game modes on other maps, certain champs in ARAM trend to being more effective and separate into perceived 'tiers'. The issue is the asymmetrical champ selection experience that 'ARAM-only accounts' create. In all other modes, when picking, you have an equal opportunity to choose champs you want as the other team does. ARAM-only accounts undermine this by giving a statistical advantage of hitting those 'tier champs' compared to other players. Here lies the crux of the unfairness.

Making ALL champions available on ARAM is likely to contribute a net positive to the overall sustainable health of ARAM as a game mode, but there are still many things to consider. There is so much energy and passion from you guys surrounding ARAM, we want to do justice to that spirit and not just pull a trigger without thinking.

Personally, I like the idea of making all champions available in ARAM games, and hope this is something we can eventually take a closer look at to find a healthy solution. ^_-
Just do it, no further changes are needed to this mode mayby except one increase penalty for queue dodge since more ppl will most likely do it once ARAM will be truly ARAM. I can assure u that u will see tons of old ppl who left the game comming back because of that.


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AmnFshn

Senior Member

07-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4T3NCY View Post
You're absolutely right here. The reroll system is one of many facets we would need to revisit before implementing something like this. We agree that simply switching on ALL champs in ARAM with it's current shape, would not feel very good. If/when we do it, we want to do it right. ^.^o
Now I'm not going to say that it is easy to just enable all champions in ARAM and possibly remove rerolls or limit the usage of rerolls, but damn, it shouldn't be nuclear physics.

These kind of posts feel pretty disingenuous at times, like yes great you heard our opinion, but something that feels like a simple change being actually that big of a deal just blows my mind at times.

Yes, you want to do it right. But what could POSSIBLY go wrong?


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Swaggerwocky

Junior Member

07-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izbiz View Post
Just to play Devil's Advocate:

Do you think it's fair that someone who only plays ARAM has access to all Champions while everyone else does not?
Yes because in normals, you can lock any champion you want. In ARAM the randomness means that if you want to play Crittlesticks, you have the same chance of getting that as the guy who just wants to spam lux laugh and lazers.