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How to Improve Sightstone

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SirLapse

Senior Member

07-27-2014

Honestly I believe something in the utility mastery should unlock the ability to have sightstone available off of the warding trinket.

That way, it will easily become a support or utility-only item. I'd prefer to have that replace the extra starting gold mastery path, since the gold would've went to vision items anyway.

Ironically, this would be a nerf to Lee Sin lol.


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Foolish Lantern

Senior Member

07-28-2014

I really like the idea of branching build for Sightstone. Plus, all these varied gems makes Taric happy.


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parlance

Member

07-29-2014

I didn't see this thread when I posted mine, which basically says the same thing.

What is the primary design goal when working on and balancing a game like League of Legends? Fun. It IS fun right? If your game wasn't fun, nobody would play it! The key problems in achieving this is that what is fun for someone might be taking away from the fun for somebody else.

League of Legends is a team game, and on a team players fill roles. Sometimes these roles overlap a bit, but for the most part people play their role as defined. These roles are so ingrained into the current meta that they are actually listed as such in the new team builder.

So what does that have to do with the sight stone?

Arguably the least fun role to take in LoL right now is support. I'm sure some people feel differently and enjoy playing support, and I do as well. You'll have your moments when you can make an impact in the game with well timed abilities to lock up enemies and help your team-mates escape harm, but you can often feel that you are unable to have the personal impact in the game that other positions have, which is detrimental to the fun you can have in that role.

You can tell how people feel about support just by using team builder. Supports are generally harder to get in team builder. Why? People for the most part want to be the star. They want to get lots of gold, they want to have strong builds and high stats, they want to feel like they are strongly affecting the course of the game. This is difficult to do as a support with the current itemization. If you want to do any of those things you're going to have to make some serious sacrifices, and the one place that is the most difficult to sacrifice is vision because of it's extreme importance to the success of your team.

Trinkets were a great step forward in fixing this issue, but I think there is still more that could be done, and branching out sight stone is a great place to start.

I think people will oppose these changes for the same reason you see people oppose mid lane APCs going to support in the bot lane. People who don't play support I think can be very selfish when it comes to how they think the game should be played.

I don't think anybody here wants to see the support role removed from the current meta, all we're asking is just to have a teensy weensy piece of that big fun pie you guys have been chowing down on for the last few years.


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PigCheese

Recruiter

07-30-2014

I think the simplest and best change would be to make ruby sightstone give a new passive that allows you to place 1 extra ward on the map so that you can have up to 4 green wards down and a pink. This would give more incentive to upgrade to ruby sightstone other then for 180 hp.


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17inchcorkscrew

Senior Member

07-30-2014

Quote:
FantasySniper:
12 Mp5 isn't that strong, especially since with other items of similar Mp5, you could get much more needed stats. I would never end up putting off an Ardent Censer or Mikael's for Sapphire SS, especially since it so happens that the components required in it are also required of every other Mp5 item's recipe.

Okay, but you would put off an Aegis, and possibly a tier 3 support item. This is totally acceptable, but it is far more powerful than the other upgrades.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
It still is a good item, but maybe if they were to increase the ward capacity by 1, it would be better. I'm fully okay with that to buff the SS upgrades, including Ruby.

You're "fully okay" with it, but do you think that it would be better than the current sightstone? I do, by the way.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
So what you are saying is that it should not have any qualities making undesirable for farming champions? I think that it already serves that function through a lack of qualities.

I understand, but this is allowed by the ambiguity of your goal:
Quote:
SirLapse:
Honestly I believe something in the utility mastery should unlock the ability to have sightstone available off of the warding trinket.

That way, it will easily become a support or utility-only item. I'd prefer to have that replace the extra starting gold mastery path, since the gold would've went to vision items anyway.

Ironically, this would be a nerf to Lee Sin lol.

This is precisely the wrong way to go about it.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
True, and that is what I hope will be achieved by providing more options than simply Ruby.

Again, my issue was with your goals, not with your suggestions.


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FantasySniper

Senior Member

07-30-2014

Quote:
17inchcorkscrew:
Okay, but you would put off an Aegis, and possibly a tier 3 support item. This is totally acceptable, but it is far more powerful than the other upgrades.


"Vision + Mp5 vs. Team MR and Health" is something that you would have consider under the circumstances. You would have to make the best choice based on the situation, as with all item choices. If in comparison to Ruby, it is not unheard of for tanky supports to purchase it early if they are ahead, so purchasing the best suited upgrade for any support should be no different.
Quote:
You're "fully okay" with it, but do you think that it would be better than the current sightstone? I do, by the way.


Yes, it would be better. If an available upgrade becomes more efficient, so does the component because it gets bigger and better later on. (If this does not answer your question, I'm just having trouble understanding what you're asking.)

Quote:
I understand, but this is allowed by the ambiguity of your goal:

Again, my issue was with your goals, not with your suggestions.


How do you think I should better word the goals?


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frigginmurlocs

Member

07-30-2014

Quote:
FantasySniper:

Sapphire Sightstone:
+150 Health
+12 Mp5
Sightstone (800g) + Faerie Charm [x3] (540g) + 260g = 1600g <> 150 Health (400g) | 10 Mp5 (720g) | 70% Gold Efficiency

Diamond Sightstone:
+150 Health
+350 Mana
Sightstone (800g) + Mana Crystal (400g) + 400g = 1600g <> 150 Health (400g) | 350 Mana (700g) | 68.75% Gold Efficiency

OK minor complaint, but these should be switched because the mana crystal is clearly called a sapphire crystal.


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frigginmurlocs

Member

07-30-2014

But wait, there's more:
if you collect all of them, why can't they be combined into a super outrageous gem sightstone?


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17inchcorkscrew

Senior Member

07-30-2014

Quote:
FantasySniper:
"Vision + Mp5 vs. Team MR and Health" is something that you would have consider under the circumstances. You would have to make the best choice based on the situation, as with all item choices. If in comparison to Ruby, it is not unheard of for tanky supports to purchase it early if they are ahead, so purchasing the best suited upgrade for any support should be no different.

You're right. It should be no different. That's why sapphire sightstone (calling it sapphire for clarity's sake and because names are constructs) should only give 10 Mp5. The thing about Mp5 is that it's far more impactful on it's own than every other stat you've provided. Mp5 is a necessity on more than one support archetype, and filling such a necessity so cheaply means that Mikael's vs. Locket becomes Mp5 + MR + Active vs. Mp5 + Team MR + Health when the latter shouldn't ordinarily grant Mp5. This is fine, but it means that sapphire would be built far more often than the alternatives.
Rather than taking sapphire down to 10 Mp5, you could give Amethyst 5 more AP, Diamond 50 more mana, Emerald 2 more Hp5, and Ruby 50 more health.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
Yes, it would be better. If an available upgrade becomes more efficient, so does the component because it gets bigger and better later on. (If this does not answer your question, I'm just having trouble understanding what you're asking.)

My question was whether you thought that having 6 wards would be better for upgraded sightstones as items. If you do, add that to your suggestions, rather than saying that you would be fine with it. If not, don't bring it up, or even give the reason why not.
I prefer this idea to that of buffing stats because I think that sightstone upgrades should be prized for vision. While six wards could promote keeping the same three wards up, and it could become crucial late game, I think it would actually add an identity to the upgrades beyond "a lump of stats supports might want."
Quote:
FantasySniper:
How do you think I should better word the goals?

Goals:
1) Provide meaningful choice in support itemization through upgrades to Sightstone
2) Avoid making Sightstone more appealing or more prevalent.


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FantasySniper

Senior Member

07-31-2014

Quote:
17inchcorkscrew:
You're right. It should be no different. That's why sapphire sightstone (calling it sapphire for clarity's sake and because names are constructs) should only give 10 Mp5. The thing about Mp5 is that it's far more impactful on it's own than every other stat you've provided. Mp5 is a necessity on more than one support archetype, and filling such a necessity so cheaply means that Mikael's vs. Locket becomes Mp5 + MR + Active vs. Mp5 + Team MR + Health when the latter shouldn't ordinarily grant Mp5. This is fine, but it means that sapphire would be built far more often than the alternatives.
Rather than taking sapphire down to 10 Mp5, you could give Amethyst 5 more AP, Diamond 50 more mana, Emerald 2 more Hp5, and Ruby 50 more health.


Item stats and their efficiency are generally more complex than this, but simply reducing the Mp5 is probably something I should have done in the first place. I was just worried about the power of Mp5 in general because it is normally an unrealistically efficient stat to make up for what little indirect power it gives.
Quote:
My question was whether you thought that having 6 wards would be better for upgraded sightstones as items. If you do, add that to your suggestions, rather than saying that you would be fine with it. If not, don't bring it up, or even give the reason why not.
I prefer this idea to that of buffing stats because I think that sightstone upgrades should be prized for vision. While six wards could promote keeping the same three wards up, and it could become crucial late game, I think it would actually add an identity to the upgrades beyond "a lump of stats supports might want."

Quote:
FantasySniper:
The ward capacity should stay the same, but increasing it on certain upgrades may be an option.


I thought that I had already said it, but I can definitely word it better, so I will.
Quote:
Goals:
1) Provide meaningful choice in support itemization through upgrades to Sightstone
2) Avoid making Sightstone more appealing or more prevalent.


I'll use this instead, kudos :^)
Quote:
frigginmurlocs:
OK minor complaint, but these should be switched because the mana crystal is clearly called a sapphire crystal.


I was mostly just conflicted when it came to choosing theme colors for the magic effects. They really just majorly use anything that is or between blue and red, so as you can imagine, that limited my options greatly. I will change it, after all, diamond is more thematic for "clarity and meditation".