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How to Improve Sightstone

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FantasySniper

Senior Member

07-25-2014

Quote:
17inchcorkscrew:
Providing two mana options to cater to those with mana ratios is kinda silly, and it doesn't really give more choice in itemization because a given champion will always choose the same one if the two are balanced.


As with other itemization, it will always depends on which champion is buying the item, and in what situation.
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The Mp5 option shouldn't be 12 because that puts it at a power level far above that of all of your other suggestions. 12 Mp5 is all most champions ever need.


Most Mp5 items have just as much - if not more - regen while still providing even more stats. You can never have enough mana, man. It's hard to conserve when your team constantly needs heals, shields, and CC.
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Aegis doesn't anymore, and Tiamat shouldn't. Why does building from two Juvjuvs or Færies help anything?


I fail to see why this is such a problem. It does not cause any inherent issues I can think of.
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Nobody would spend 800 gold for 30 AP, or for 350 mana, or for 250 health, or even for 18 Hp5, barring a 6-item support build. I'm thinking of these as being similar to boot enchants, except that they give stats instead of passives.


These upgrade options are not supposed to override other items, just like Ruby Sightstone.
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No, it should be analogous to saying, "No one but a mid laner should buy a Rabadon's," which is true in most cases, but not all.


"Not at all"? The only other role that should ever buy a Rabadon's is maybe (a big maybe) a damage-dependant support such as Annie, Karma, or Zyra.
ADC = Role, APC = Role, Rabadon's = APC, Rabadon's ≠ ADC. Non-Support ≠ Sightstone.
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You're right. As the non-sapphire options stand they would not affect anybody but supports. Unfortuantely, they would barely affect supports at all. That said, I'm still not sure about buffing their power level. It would delay supports' power spikes.


This is very contradictory, are you saying that it doesn't buff supports or it does?
It also contradicts your previous statement about it not being a priority purchase.
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It does, but with supports getting almost as much gold as junglers, and with the vision changes, I could see it becoming an awkward part of the meta.


When that day comes, someone will find the solution, but that is not this day.


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17inchcorkscrew

Senior Member

07-25-2014

Quote:
FantasySniper:
Most Mp5 items have just as much - if not more - regen while still providing even more stats. You can never have enough mana, man. It's hard to conserve when your team constantly needs heals, shields, and CC.

So it's fine to give more Mp5 than a chalice (I know that chalice gives more mana sustain with its passive, but this actually has more than Morellonomicon, an occasional Athene's replacement) to an item that costs less and doesn't take an inventory slot? I just want to help accomplish goal 2 here.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
I fail to see why this is such a problem. It does not cause any inherent issues I can think of.

Pointless clutter, for one. In this case, it wouldn't actually lock up an inventory, but there doesn't seem to be a reason for it.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
These upgrade options are not supposed to override other items, just like Ruby Sightstone.

If these items aren't intended to be purchased, I don't understand what they're for.
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FantasySniper:
"Not at all"? The only other role that should ever buy a Rabadon's is maybe (a big maybe) a damage-dependant support such as Annie, Karma, or Zyra.
ADC = Role, APC = Role, Rabadon's = APC, Rabadon's ≠ ADC. Non-Support ≠ Sightstone.

An AP top laner could also go for a Deathcap. However, Deathcap is perhaps a bad example because it is designed for those who are stacking AP. The gold generation items are designed to be unattractive to non-supports, as are jungle items to laners. Sightstone, however, is a vision item, so it should not be specifically unattractive to non-supports. I think the design value should be that Sightstone should not become more attractive of an item on its own, rather than that it should not become more attractive specifically to non-supports. There isn't necessarily a practical difference, but I think it avoids potential misconceptions.
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FantasySniper:
This is very contradictory, are you saying that it doesn't buff supports or it does?
It also contradicts your previous statement about it not being a priority purchase.

It doesn't buff supports at all. If it were buffed, it might become a priority purchase, and it might stagnate support itemization for longer into the game. I didn't think that I was being unclear, but thank you for telling me so.


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FantasySniper

Senior Member

07-25-2014

Quote:
17inchcorkscrew:
So it's fine to give more Mp5 than a chalice (I know that chalice gives more mana sustain with its passive, but this actually has more than Morellonomicon, an occasional Athene's replacement) to an item that costs less and doesn't take an inventory slot? I just want to help accomplish goal 2 here.


SS does take up an inventory slot. This Mp5 is considerably delayed compared to other items with the stat, where Mp5 is one of the first parts of their recipe. Also remember that Mp5 does not factor very much at all into combat situations, and it is fairly cheap because of that.
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Pointless clutter, for one. In this case, it wouldn't actually lock up an inventory, but there doesn't seem to be a reason for it.


If you are purchasing the recipe components, then you must already happen to be purchasing the item. As with Tiamat, you are buying all of these items because it is your very next goal, not a long-term sitting duck in your inventory.
I had used 3 of each item in the recipe because I wanted supports to be given a reasonable build process for them to acquire the final item. Tiamat's, and similar items', recipe may be convoluted, but that's because they provide a power spike. SS's power spike is not a directly combat-assistive passive, but a vision one, and so it makes sense for the recipe to be considerably easy on how long it takes to finally acquire those stats, rather than wait longer than you should for the same end result. (It is like providing the Daggers in BoTRK's recipe. They are there to substitute for the final desired stat until it can be acquired.)
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If these items aren't intended to be purchased, I don't understand what they're for.


Would you say Ruby SS is intended to be purchased? Well, whatever your answer, the same will apply to these upgrades. The entire point of them is to accomplish Goal 1.
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An AP top laner could also go for a Deathcap. However, Deathcap is perhaps a bad example because it is designed for those who are stacking AP. The gold generation items are designed to be unattractive to non-supports, as are jungle items to laners. Sightstone, however, is a vision item, so it should not be specifically unattractive to non-supports. I think the design value should be that Sightstone should not become more attractive of an item on its own, rather than that it should not become more attractive specifically to non-supports. There isn't necessarily a practical difference, but I think it avoids potential misconceptions.


Mage building AP = APC. (Role ≠ Lane.)
Deathcap accomplishes being unattractive to every other role by using a passive that only becomes properly effective when you are stacking AP. The only role that stacks AP to such a degree is an APC.
When trying to accomplish Goal 2, it should not look attractive to any role besides the support. It should be a more attractive item to supports if it accomplishes Goal 1.


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The5lacker

Senior Member

07-25-2014

So we have a bunch of completely nonsensical and pointless items that lose stats from upgrading.

Come on, Sniper. Get your act together. No one would every buy any of these and you know it.


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FantasySniper

Senior Member

07-25-2014

Quote:
The5lacker:
So we have a bunch of completely nonsensical and pointless items that lose stats from upgrading.

Come on, Sniper. Get your act together. No one would every buy any of these and you know it.


1. They lose stats? >.>
2. Their point is to provide choice for supports.
3. I would actually probably end up upgrading my SS more often just because it's a money sink if I can't purchase anything else.


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17inchcorkscrew

Senior Member

07-26-2014

Quote:
FantasySniper:
SS does take up an inventory slot.

Yes, but the upgrade does not, and the upgrade is what we're actually discussing here.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
This Mp5 is considerably delayed compared to other items with the stat, where Mp5 is one of the first parts of their recipe. Also remember that Mp5 does not factor very much at all into combat situations, and it is fairly cheap because of that.

If Sapphire sighstone came into the game with 12 Mp5, it would be the only sightstone upgrade purchased before six items. It would be bought before any major item on any mana using supports who wouldn't build Mikael's. If you don't want to lower its power level, buff all of the other options and redefine how strong you want sightstone upgrades to be.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
If you are purchasing the recipe components, then you must already happen to be purchasing the item. As with Tiamat, you are buying all of these items because it is your very next goal, not a long-term sitting duck in your inventory.
I had used 3 of each item in the recipe because I wanted supports to be given a reasonable build process for them to acquire the final item. Tiamat's, and similar items', recipe may be convoluted, but that's because they provide a power spike. SS's power spike is not a directly combat-assistive passive, but a vision one, and so it makes sense for the recipe to be considerably easy on how long it takes to finally acquire those stats, rather than wait longer than you should for the same end result. (It is like providing the Daggers in BoTRK's recipe. They are there to substitute for the final desired stat until it can be acquired.)

...except Bork should have a recurve bow instead of the two daggers. That said, it's not super important.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
Would you say Ruby SS is intended to be purchased? Well, whatever your answer, the same will apply to these upgrades. The entire point of them is to accomplish Goal 1.

Ruby sightstone was a good item before the global three ward limit (or, more specifically, before sightstone could place three wards). It's going to need to do more for vision if it will ever be commonly bought. That goes for these suggestions aswell. If this thread was posted before season 4, I would not be around the forums to laud it wholeheartedly, but it would be deserving.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
Mage building AP = APC. (Role ≠ Lane.)
Deathcap accomplishes being unattractive to every other role by using a passive that only becomes properly effective when you are stacking AP. The only role that stacks AP to such a degree is an APC.

True. This is why I said that Rabadon's is a bad example.
Support items are specifically designed for the support role. Sightstone, however, is specifically designed for champions who spend a lot on wards. While that is often synonymous with supports, it does not necessarily need to be so. Sightstone upgrades should not have qualities that specifically make them undesirable to farming champions. Your suggstions do not fall prey to this trap, but the wording of your goals allows it.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
When trying to accomplish Goal 2, it should not look attractive to any role besides the support. It should be a more attractive item to supports if it accomplishes Goal 1.

Sightstone, on its own, does not need to become any more attractive to the support role. It's kind of a necessity already. The goal is that sightstone upgrades should become more desirable.


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The5lacker

Senior Member

07-26-2014

Quote:
FantasySniper:
1. They lose stats? >.>
2. Their point is to provide choice for supports.
3. I would actually probably end up upgrading my SS more often just because it's a money sink if I can't purchase anything else.

Sightstone: 200 Health

All of your suggestions: 150 Health

Is 150 Health less than 200? Last I checked, YES.


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17inchcorkscrew

Senior Member

07-26-2014

Quote:
The5lacker:
Sightstone: 200 Health

All of your suggestions: 150 Health

Is 150 Health less than 200? Last I checked, YES.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sightstone


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The5lacker

Senior Member

07-26-2014

Quote:
17inchcorkscrew:
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sightstone

My bad, I keep thinking Sightstone isn't a giant slap in the face to supports.


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FantasySniper

Senior Member

07-26-2014

Quote:
17inchcorkscrew:
Yes, but the upgrade does not, and the upgrade is what we're actually discussing here.


The upgrade still takes up an inventory slot, even if you are improving its slot-efficiency.
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If Sapphire sighstone came into the game with 12 Mp5, it would be the only sightstone upgrade purchased before six items. It would be bought before any major item on any mana using supports who wouldn't build Mikael's. If you don't want to lower its power level, buff all of the other options and redefine how strong you want sightstone upgrades to be.


12 Mp5 isn't that strong, especially since with other items of similar Mp5, you could get much more needed stats. I would never end up putting off an Ardent Censer or Mikael's for Sapphire SS, especially since it so happens that the components required in it are also required of every other Mp5 item's recipe.
Quote:
Ruby sightstone was a good item before the global three ward limit (or, more specifically, before sightstone could place three wards). It's going to need to do more for vision if it will ever be commonly bought. That goes for these suggestions aswell. If this thread was posted before season 4, I would not be around the forums to laud it wholeheartedly, but it would be deserving.


It still is a good item, but maybe if they were to increase the ward capacity by 1, it would be better. I'm fully okay with that to buff the SS upgrades, including Ruby.
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True. This is why I said that Rabadon's is a bad example.
Support items are specifically designed for the support role. Sightstone, however, is specifically designed for champions who spend a lot on wards. While that is often synonymous with supports, it does not necessarily need to be so. Sightstone upgrades should not have qualities that specifically make them undesirable to farming champions. Your suggstions do not fall prey to this trap, but the wording of your goals allows it.


So what you are saying is that it should not have any qualities making undesirable for farming champions? I think that it already serves that function through a lack of qualities.
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Sightstone, on its own, does not need to become any more attractive to the support role. It's kind of a necessity already. The goal is that sightstone upgrades should become more desirable.


True, and that is what I hope will be achieved by providing more options than simply Ruby.