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How to Improve Sightstone

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FantasySniper

Senior Member

07-16-2014

I made a duplicate in the Boards Beta (http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay/EjOBINcY-how-to-improve-sightstone), all of those who have supported me up to this point, please come by and do it there, too!

A word of introduction: If you are not going to bother reading the entire thing, then you might be better off leaving the discussion now and make it easier on everyone that actually did.

Now although this idea may be overdone and it would honestly waste less effort to have someone else come in and suggest it again in a few days (tops), I'm hoping to break down the concept into something that will stick and hopefully worm its way through the community enough to get Rito to notice. (I can dream, can't I?)

Why Sightstone needs to be improved:

As with current ADC itemization, you are restricted to very few options as a Support, even if they seem like real choices. A gold income item (that will depend on the supporting style), Sightstone, a Glacial Shroud/Forbidden Idol build path (depending on whether you are tanky or utility), and your boots (that will also depend of the supporting style). Beyond that, there are items considered highly optimal to supports, but not so much to other champs, such as Twin Shadows and Locket of Solari.
Before Locket of Salami got its armor changed to MR, it too was a staple even for utility supports because of the rounded survivability it offered. Freedom of itemization is a big deal to champions that rely on items to succeed, but supports should not be barred from that same freedom just because they don't rely on gold as much their lane partner.

How Sightstone needs to be improved:

2 goals must be met to make Sightstone into the more enjoyable item that it should be:
1. Provide meaningful choice in support itemization through upgrades to Sightstone.
2. Avoid making Sightstone more appealing or more prevalent, especially to other roles.

Whether or not Sightstone should even exist, why Supports must be burdened with the task of vision control, and etc, can be discussed elsewhere, but no one really wants the vision wars to return and force everyone to purchase their own ward-cranking machine for the sake of it. To prevent this, the Sightstone's most attractive feature must stay the infinitely cost effective ward production, and no stats should overwrite that primary function to prevent another role from consistently purchasing it.

To accomplish this, there are two methods:
1. Provide more build paths other than just Ruby.
2. Transform Sightstone passive into a trinket and allow for one additional slot of itemization.

Method 2 is obviously more difficult because trinkets are easily available to everyone, meaning goal 2 is harder to achieve. It also doesn't exactly follow goal 1 either because it is then still the staple within a slot (even if it is a more convenient slot), meaning that supports would normally be discouraged from choosing anything else.
Method 1 is then the best choice because it provides variety and can best be handled to achieve both goals.

Concept Items:

Keep in mind that these are concepts and may not entirely match a "balanced version" - but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try, so opinions are welcome.
For the following items, I will assume that the Ruby SS's passive will possess an immediate value of 533 gold. Total costs may be edged around in order to achieve round and attractive numbers, and/or to achieve a more balanced item overall. The ward capacity can be increased on one, more, or all of the upgrades, including Ruby, to promote SS upgrading.

Amethyst Sightstone:
+150 Health
+30 AP
Sightstone (800g) + Amp Tome (435g) + 365g = 1600g <> 150 Health (400g) | 30 AP (652.5g) | ~66% Gold Efficiency

Diamond Sightstone:
+150 Health
+10 Mp5
Sightstone (800g) + Faerie Charm [x3] (540g) + 260g = 1600g <> 150 Health (400g) | 10 Mp5 (600g) | 62.5% Gold Efficiency

Sapphire Sightstone:
+150 Health
+350 Mana
Sightstone (800g) + Mana Crystal (400g) + 400g = 1600g <> 150 Health (400g) | 350 Mana (700g) | 68.75% Gold Efficiency

Emerald Sightstone:
+150 Health
+18 Hp5
Sightstone (800g) + Rejuv Bead [x3] (540g) + 260g = 1600g <> 150 Health (400g) | 18 Hp5 (600g) | 62.5% Gold Efficiency

Ruby Sightstone, of course, will stay the same.

Another consideration would be to allow Sightstone to be combined with more complex advanced items (instead of basic) such as Forbidden Idol, Kindlegem, Catalyst the Protector, and Fiendish Codex, while increasing the overall costs of Sightstone upgrades, but this makes goal 2 more difficult to achieve and should be thought through carefully.

Thank you for reading this rather long-winded post. Suggestions are welcome, so keep this thread going and we may eventually see something like this go live!

Thank you, 17inchcorkscrew, for providing a better wording for the goals and offering other meaningful input, much appreciated.


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Gamer2470

Senior Member

07-16-2014

Lol this is great!


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FantasySniper

Senior Member

07-17-2014

Added thoughts about the ward capacity. (Just a bump with an excuse :P)


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FantasySniper

Senior Member

07-19-2014

I appreciate all the up-votes, everyone, but please bump it or else it won't get that much attention.
At least keep it up to prevent the same thread from being made every week. °~°


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NinjaToad99

Senior Member

07-20-2014

I'd like some more build paths for SS.


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Gamer2470

Senior Member

07-23-2014

Bada-da-dada-Bump


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Budupops

Senior Member

07-24-2014

bump


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17inchcorkscrew

Senior Member

07-24-2014

First of all, there are a number of issues with these specific items: there is no reason to have both mana and Mp5 options, the Mp5 option shouldn't have 12, there should be more total options, an item shouldn't have 4 components, &c. However, that's not a real problem with the idea.

A big problem with this is that, if good enough for supports to want, it would delay their itemization, which is already quite delayed as is. If not good enough for supports to want, it would become something of a selfish option and/or a friend for non-homeguard enchants. As your non-sapphire options stand, they simply provide a choice between ruby sightstones, which nobody wants in the first place.

Another problem of mine is that I think upgrades for sightstone should be vision related or provide utility.

Also, the wording of your second goal is perhaps misleading. If a solution to the ideal power level of a sightstone upgrade is found, I think that would work for junglers who pick up sightstone. That said, the changes should probably not make 5-sightstone comps viable.

I think the biggest reason that ruby sightstone is hard to fix is that sightstone is a relic, but I commend you for trying.


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FantasySniper

Senior Member

07-24-2014

Quote:
17inchcorkscrew:
First of all, there are a number of issues with these specific items: there is no reason to have both mana and Mp5 options, the Mp5 option shouldn't have 12, there should be more total options, an item shouldn't have 4 components, &c. However, that's not a real problem with the idea.


Diamond SS is for Blitzcrank and Soraka primarily, but I'm sure there are other cases where it may be used.
Why shouldn't the Mp5 option be 12?
There shouldn't be more total options simply because there aren't any more stats that are relevant to a support. (Which assists in Goal 2)
It is okay to let an item have 4 components. Tiamat and Aegis do the same.
Quote:
A big problem with this is that, if good enough for supports to want, it would delay their itemization, which is already quite delayed as is. If not good enough for supports to want, it would become something of a selfish option and/or a friend for non-homeguard enchants. As your non-sapphire options stand, they simply provide a choice between ruby sightstones, which nobody wants in the first place.


I wouldn't see this delaying my itemization at all. It would still be simple to purchase SS early and then upgrade it whenever I feel I need the stats, no pressure at all to get it. I don't think they are demanding enough to warrant putting off something more important.
If you still see it being a problem, remember that the total gold can make it cheaper or more expensive depending on how you would want to remedy it.
Quote:
Another problem of mine is that I think upgrades for sightstone should be vision related or provide utility.


They are upgrades in vision. They still retain the Ruby's passive. I have also noted that changing the ward limit can be an option to equalize the choices better.
Quote:
Also, the wording of your second goal is perhaps misleading. If a solution to the ideal power level of a sightstone upgrade is found, I think that would work for junglers who pick up sightstone. That said, the changes should probably not make 5-sightstone comps viable.


That is exactly Goal 2. "It must not become optimal for any other role." Saying that "No one but a support should buy SS" should be directly analogous to saying "an ADC should never buy Rabadon's." Lee Sin is probably the only living example of a non-support (semi-regularly) buying SS, but he is a special case and this should only barely affect him.
Quote:
I think the biggest reason that ruby sightstone is hard to fix is that sightstone is a relic, but I commend you for trying.


It is a rather old concept, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work. It serves its purpose, and it serves it well.
Thank you.


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17inchcorkscrew

Senior Member

07-25-2014

Quote:
FantasySniper:
Diamond SS is for Blitzcrank and Soraka primarily, but I'm sure there are other cases where it may be used.

Providing two mana options to cater to those with mana ratios is kinda silly, and it doesn't really give more choice in itemization because a given champion will always choose the same one if the two are balanced.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
Why shouldn't the Mp5 option be 12?

The Mp5 option shouldn't be 12 because that puts it at a power level far above that of all of your other suggestions. 12 Mp5 is all most champions ever need.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
It is okay to let an item have 4 components. Tiamat and Aegis do the same.

Aegis doesn't anymore, and Tiamat shouldn't. Why does building from two Juvjuvs or Færies help anything?
Quote:
FantasySniper:
There shouldn't be more total options simply because there aren't any more stats that are relevant to a support. (Which assists in Goal 2)

Quote:
FantasySniper:
I wouldn't see this delaying my itemization at all. It would still be simple to purchase SS early and then upgrade it whenever I feel I need the stats, no pressure at all to get it. I don't think they are demanding enough to warrant putting off something more important.
If you still see it being a problem, remember that the total gold can make it cheaper or more expensive depending on how you would want to remedy it.

Nobody would spend 800 gold for 30 AP, or for 350 mana, or for 250 health, or even for 18 Hp5, barring a 6-item support build. I'm thinking of these as being similar to boot enchants, except that they give stats instead of passives.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
They are upgrades in vision. They still retain the Ruby's passive. I have also noted that changing the ward limit can be an option to equalize the choices better.

Yes, but their calling card is their stats. That said, I rescind my statement.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
That is exactly Goal 2. "It must not become optimal for any other role." Saying that "No one but a support should buy SS" should be directly analogous to saying "an ADC should never buy Rabadon's."

No, it should be analogous to saying, "No one but a mid laner should buy a Rabadon's," which is true in most cases, but not all.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
Lee Sin is probably the only living example of a non-support (semi-regularly) buying SS, but he is a special case and this should only barely affect him.

You're right. As the non-sapphire options stand they would not affect anybody but supports. Unfortuantely, they would barely affect supports at all. That said, I'm still not sure about buffing their power level. It would delay supports' power spikes.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
It is a rather old concept, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work. It serves its purpose, and it serves it well.

It does, but with supports getting almost as much gold as junglers, and with the vision changes, I could see it becoming an awkward part of the meta.
Quote:
FantasySniper:
Thank you.

Any time.