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@Riot, Morello, etc: on the topic of overloaded kits and champs having weaknesses

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Militant GDI

Senior Member

06-25-2014

To cut to the point of this post, the main question on my mind is this: Why does Braum's passive also do magic damage? Disclaimer: this is less a complaint about losing to Braum than it is using him as a specific, more egregious example.

From what I've picked up about your design principles lately (as in for a couple of years), you always try to give champions clearly defined areas of strength and also clearly defined weaknesses. However, sometimes I question how this is applied to real champ design.

His passive brings huge utility and will always be a very strong passive. But here it also adds significant burst (110 magic damage, at level 5, is about 1/8 of Vayne's HP). More generally, Braum is meant to be a strong defensive champion who can shield allies, counterinitiate, body block, and peel for days. And he can basically do most of that well. However, his W/Q combo also gives him pretty strong fight starting potential, making him sometimes feel pretty scary to play against in lane. On top of big CC, his Q/passive also brings a lot of damage. This further strengthens his initiation/kill potential ability, which seems like it shouldn't be a specialty area for Braum; it seems like he should be a more manly Janna who can body block everything. And I just don't understand why.

My complaint here is backed up by LoLKing, which puts his winrate in ranked at between 53 and 55%. It seems like Braum should probably receive slight nerfs, as that's a pretty high winrate. Maybe this would be a great place to nerf him?

I'd really appreciate if someone (@Morello, Morello, @Xypherous, Xypherous, any other design people, I don't know how tagging names works) could respond to this and elaborate on why this decision was made/defend it.


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Militant GDI

Senior Member

06-25-2014

bump for Riot response


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Militant GDI

Senior Member

06-27-2014

bump.


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

06-28-2014

Quote:
Militant GDI:
To cut to the point of this post, the main question on my mind is this: Why does Braum's passive also do magic damage? Disclaimer: this is less a complaint about losing to Braum than it is using him as a specific, more egregious example.

From what I've picked up about your design principles lately (as in for a couple of years), you always try to give champions clearly defined areas of strength and also clearly defined weaknesses. However, sometimes I question how this is applied to real champ design.

His passive brings huge utility and will always be a very strong passive. But here it also adds significant burst (110 magic damage, at level 5, is about 1/8 of Vayne's HP). More generally, Braum is meant to be a strong defensive champion who can shield allies, counterinitiate, body block, and peel for days. And he can basically do most of that well. However, his W/Q combo also gives him pretty strong fight starting potential, making him sometimes feel pretty scary to play against in lane. On top of big CC, his Q/passive also brings a lot of damage. This further strengthens his initiation/kill potential ability, which seems like it shouldn't be a specialty area for Braum; it seems like he should be a more manly Janna who can body block everything. And I just don't understand why.

My complaint here is backed up by LoLKing, which puts his winrate in ranked at between 53 and 55%. It seems like Braum should probably receive slight nerfs, as that's a pretty high winrate. Maybe this would be a great place to nerf him?

I'd really appreciate if someone (@Morello, Morello, @Xypherous, Xypherous, any other design people, I don't know how tagging names works) could respond to this and elaborate on why this decision was made/defend it.


The primary reason we added bonus magic damage to Braum's passive was because we wanted an additional damage source on his kit, one that scaled over the course of the game in particular. Champions that receive almost all of their kit's damage via a single spell (e.g. Zilean) generally end up with unhealthy and unsatisfying power curves. They tend to bully early and then falling off rapidly post level 9, even if they're supports and damage isn't their primary contribution. As a melee tank support we also wanted to ensure Braum's presence, post passive proc, had a bit of extra threat beyond just his auto attacks, hence the bonus magic damage from him per attack after the stun.

As far as Braum's balance goes we agree he's too strong at the moment. We're looking at a couple of changes to his passve for the next patch, reducing the duration of the mark to make it a little easier to drop the stacks off as an opponent and reducing the starting damage as well to address his early power in lane (40+10 per level from memory, instead of 60+10 per level, though not certain on those figures off the top of the head).


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IPlayChampions

Senior Member

06-28-2014

Quote:
Meddler:
The primary reason we added bonus magic damage to Braum's passive was because we wanted an additional damage source on his kit, one that scaled over the course of the game in particular. Champions that receive almost all of their kit's damage via a single spell (e.g. Zilean) generally end up with unhealthy and unsatisfying power curves. They tend to bully early and then falling off rapidly post level 9, even if they're supports and damage isn't their primary contribution. As a melee tank support we also wanted to ensure Braum's presence, post passive proc, had a bit of extra threat beyond just his auto attacks, hence the bonus magic damage from him per attack after the stun.

As far as Braum's balance goes we agree he's too strong at the moment. We're looking at a couple of changes to his passve for the next patch, reducing the duration of the mark to make it a little easier to drop the stacks off as an opponent and reducing the starting damage as well to address his early power in lane (40+10 per level from memory, instead of 60+10 per level, though not certain on those figures off the top of the head).


Meddler please add me on League, creator of Varus.


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Nid is Cancer

Member

06-28-2014

gut braum gut braum


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Babalub

Senior Member

06-28-2014

I think Braum is fine, just need a little touch.


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Ginga

Recruiter

06-28-2014

Meddler, are you implying that Zilean is up for a rework?


Because if you, it'd be nice for a time mage to have a kit that actually makes use of his time mage archetype. Sure would be nice if the most relevant time-related ability in his kit is more than a bomb named "Time" Bomb and a generic slow/haste.



Also, if you want Zilean to have more than one source of damage asides from a bomb that has nothing to do with time at all outside it's name, how about giving him the ability to haste the opponent to such an extreme that they lose control of their body and degenerate from friction itself? Or reverse time in the form of making enemy skillshots shoot backwards back into the one who launched it?


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daikiry

Senior Member

06-28-2014

Quote:
Meddler:
The primary reason we added bonus magic damage to Braum's passive was because we wanted an additional damage source on his kit, one that scaled over the course of the game in particular. Champions that receive almost all of their kit's damage via a single spell (e.g. Zilean) generally end up with unhealthy and unsatisfying power curves. They tend to bully early and then falling off rapidly post level 9, even if they're supports and damage isn't their primary contribution. As a melee tank support we also wanted to ensure Braum's presence, post passive proc, had a bit of extra threat beyond just his auto attacks, hence the bonus magic damage from him per attack after the stun.

As far as Braum's balance goes we agree he's too strong at the moment. We're looking at a couple of changes to his passve for the next patch, reducing the duration of the mark to make it a little easier to drop the stacks off as an opponent and reducing the starting damage as well to address his early power in lane (40+10 per level from memory, instead of 60+10 per level, though not certain on those figures off the top of the head).


No pls NO JUST NO OP.

I think braum is where supports should be, just like you explained supports shouldn't have overwhelming and useless dmg at late game, some current supprots start falling off just in mid game and their CC doesn't compensate them.

I'm not saying braum is balanced, i do think he still need some tweeks on his numbers (hit a Q at lv 1 on any squishy + passive it's already a burned flash/heal for the opponent).

But i think as you described, that's how you should work old supports around, around that idea to let them escalate into late game and not be complete garbage if we're not super ahead (janna, soraka, zilean, nami at some point).


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kerestiar

Senior Member

06-28-2014

Quote:
Nid is Cancer:
gut braum gut braum

In other words anything you don't personally like playing as/against should be trash. Great philosophy.