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If Not NA, Then Are We Nothing?

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Korynth

Member

08-10-2014

I agree w/ the OP. And I would like to thank you for your time serving our country. But, why can't RIOT have the same rules at LPL where 60% of a team must come from NA. Seems pretty simple to me. Oh and the previous comment about CLG leaving to practice in Korea, I hope RIOT is going to at least punish them in some way. Even the NBA punished the Spurs a while back for resting their star players during a long road trip by sending them back to San Antonio early.


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Phadafi

Member

08-10-2014

I disagree in almost every single of your opinions, but I’d like to expose the reasons why.

First I’d like to warn you about your data, on the Season 3 World Championship the representation of American teams weren’t 100%. The team Vulcun had only 60% of NA players, since Bloodwater is Bulgarian (EU) and Xmithie is from Philippines (Asia). So as you can see imports aren’t something new.

Based on that, I’d have to say there’s absolutely no reason to be against Evil Geniuses on NA LCS, since they are in fact an American e-Sports organization and 60% of its players are from NA, only Krepo (Belgium) and Helios (South Korea) are imports. So they have the same right to represent America in the World Championship (unfortunately they are already out) than Vulcun had last year and CLG (Seraph and Dexter) have this year, and even more right to be consider American than TSM, since only 2 players from TSM are from NA (Lustboy, Bjergsen and Amazing are all imports). Basically in every aspect of analysis EG is rightfully American team. They played the EU LCS for a year, and that’s basically the only difference between them and any other NA roster.

So let’s get to LMQ case, it is considerably more complicated, since it is a Chinese Organization. First, you shouldn’t by any means consider them as “Chinese rejects”, since NoName was the only player to play the entire 2013 LPL Summer Split, XiaoWeiXiao, Mor and Vasili were just subs most of the time, and Ackerman (aka Godlike) played for the Worlds’ Finalist Royal Club. They would have a great potential on LPL, however as you could notice throughout many interviews with Tabe and Ackerman during the last World Championship, the Chinese scene didn’t have many opportunities for e-sports. In this scenario, they came to America, actually to fulfill your so important “American Dream”. The American Dream isn’t something stupid nationalist ****, it is about opportunities, it about give the tools to everybody to become the best. These players are here to prove they can be the best in the world, you can see in most interviews they want to go to Worlds to prove how good they are and they can be, an opportunity they wouldn’t have in China. They are going to represent us, to represent North America.

Also, if you want to consider LoL a sport, you need to understand imports are going to happen. Take in consideration soccer, the biggest sport in the world, the best teams are mostly formed by imports. Imagine a rule against that, most teams such as Real Madrid in Spain, Manchester United in England, Milan in Italy, etc. wouldn’t be able to participate in their national leagues, it would only to the most less interesting and much more boring. The imports are made to improve these leagues, creating better and more competitive teams. The Spanish players kept on playing they weren’t extinct because the imports, on contraire, they become stronger and better by learning other ways to practice, to play, improve themselves. The imports for NA scene are a good thing.

If we want to be relevant in the International Scene we need the best players, we can form great players, Cloud 9 is proof of that. But how can Cloud 9 be relevant internationally if they keep fighting weaker this like in the last split, they will never improve with that kind of domination. They NEED challenges. CompLexity and Curse are good examples that NA still have good players and can compete against these imports, but they are necessary for us to grow as region. Without them, C9 would crush everyone again and would be crushed on Worlds again.

Also, your thought about American players is depressive, there is no reason to believe the Koreans will simply come to America and crush everybody. In Brazil, for example, two of greatest Brazilian teams (Keyd and Pain Gaming) after failing to classify to Worlds last year decided to import Korean players, at the beginning they in fact crushed any other team around for sometime, however during the Brazilian Championship, two Brazilian teams (100% Brazilian players) started to figure out the strategies of these Korean players, in the semi-finals both “Semi-Korean” teams were defeated by CNB and KaBuM. This is basically what could happen in NA, importing Korean players will never mean the end of the American players, but it represents a great opportunity of improvement.

As we live in a capitalist society, the best shall survive, those who can’t adapt or be competitive shall be eliminated. We can’t accept being crushed every year by Europeans, Chinese and Koreans. If the only way for us to be competitive is through imports we need to take this opportunity to improve. With the start of this “New NA LCS” with Bjergsen, Amazing, LMQ, Helios, Dexter, etc, for the first time since I watch LOL professional play I feel that NA is as strong as EU. I’d rather a million times seeing LMQ fighting with Koreans in a good level, than seeing CLG, TSM, Curse, etc. being humiliated by almost any foreign team.

TL,DR – Imports are good for America improvement in LoL scene.


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Ironwill

Senior Member

08-10-2014

Quote:
Phadafi:
I disagree in almost every single of your opinions, but I’d like to expose the reasons why.

1. First I’d like to warn you about your data, on the Season 3 World Championship the representation of American teams weren’t 100%. The team Vulcun had only 60% of NA players, since Bloodwater is Bulgarian (EU) and Xmithie is from Philippines (Asia). So as you can see imports aren’t something new.

Based on that, I’d have to say there’s absolutely no reason to be against Evil Geniuses on NA LCS, 2.since they are in fact an American e-Sports organization and 60% of its players are from NA, only Krepo (Belgium) and Helios (South Korea) are imports. So they have the same right to represent America in the World Championship (unfortunately they are already out) than Vulcun had last year and CLG (Seraph and Dexter) have this year, 3.and even more right to be consider American than TSM, since only 2 players from TSM are from NA (Lustboy, Bjergsen and Amazing are all imports). Basically in every aspect of analysis EG is rightfully American team. They played the EU LCS for a year, and that’s basically the only difference between them and any other NA roster.

So let’s get to LMQ case, it is considerably more complicated, since it is a Chinese Organization. 4First, you shouldn’t by any means consider them as “Chinese rejects”, since NoName was the only player to play the entire 2013 LPL Summer Split, XiaoWeiXiao, Mor and Vasili were just subs most of the time, and Ackerman (aka Godlike) played for the Worlds’ Finalist Royal Club. They would have a great potential on LPL, however as you could notice throughout many interviews with Tabe and Ackerman during the last World Championship, the Chinese scene didn’t have many opportunities for e-sports. In this scenario, they came to America, actually to fulfill your so important “American Dream”. The American Dream isn’t something stupid nationalist ****, it is about opportunities, it about give the tools to everybody to become the best. These players are here to prove they can be the best in the world, you can see in most interviews they want to go to Worlds to prove how good they are and they can be, 5.an opportunity they wouldn’t have in China. They are going to represent us, to represent North America.

Also, if you want to consider LoL a sport, you need to understand imports are going to happen. Take in consideration soccer, the biggest sport in the world, the best teams are mostly formed by imports. Imagine a rule against that, most teams such as Real Madrid in Spain, Manchester United in England, Milan in Italy, etc. wouldn’t be able to participate in their national leagues, it would only to the most less interesting and much more boring. The imports are made to improve these leagues, creating better and more competitive teams. The Spanish players kept on playing they weren’t extinct because the imports, on contraire, they become stronger and better by learning other ways to practice, to play, improve themselves. The imports for NA scene are a good thing.

If we want to be relevant in the International Scene we need the best players, we can form great players, Cloud 9 is proof of that. But how can Cloud 9 be relevant internationally if they keep fighting weaker this like in the last split, they will never improve with that kind of domination. They NEED challenges. CompLexity and Curse are good examples that NA still have good players and can compete against these imports, but they are necessary for us to grow as region. Without them, C9 would crush everyone again and would be crushed on Worlds again.

Also, your thought about American players is depressive, 6. there is no reason to believe the Koreans will simply come to America and crush everybody. In Brazil, for example, two of greatest Brazilian teams (Keyd and Pain Gaming) after failing to classify to Worlds last year decided to import Korean players, at the beginning they in fact crushed any other team around for sometime, however during the Brazilian Championship, two Brazilian teams (100% Brazilian players) started to figure out the strategies of these Korean players, in the semi-finals both “Semi-Korean” teams were defeated by CNB and KaBuM. This is basically what could happen in NA, 7. importing Korean players will never mean the end of the American players, but it represents a great opportunity of improvement.

As we live in a capitalist society, the best shall survive, those who can’t adapt or be competitive shall be eliminated. We can’t accept being crushed every year by Europeans, Chinese and Koreans. If the only way for us to be competitive is through imports we need to take this opportunity to improve. 8. With the start of this “New NA LCS” with Bjergsen, Amazing, LMQ, Helios, Dexter, etc, for the first time since I watch LOL professional play I feel that NA is as strong as EU. 9. I’d rather a million times seeing LMQ fighting with Koreans in a good level, than seeing CLG, TSM, Curse, etc. being humiliated by almost any foreign team.

TL,DR – Imports are good for America improvement in LoL scene.


Ok, I don't know if you understand the English language or not, but regardless...it seems I need to "teach" you about what you clearly do not understand, and I will itemize each point above that I highlighted in BOLD and added a number to.


1. My data is 100% correct. Your understanding is what is incorrect. All of the teams that represented NA at Worlds in Season 3 were North American Teams. That means 100% North American. The fact that 1 or 2 people on a team were foreigners does not concern me in the slightest. And this seems to be the whole basis of your entire disagreement... "IMPORTS". Vulcan is 60% NA therefore the majority of their team and the foundation of their team is North America, hence they are a North American team. The 100% you so easily misunderstand... is the % CHANCE that team 1, 2, or 3 will be a North American team, not the % amount of people on one group of 5.

2. When EG first came here they were 60% FOREIGN with Yellowpete, Krepo, and Snoopeh, hence they are a foreign team. EG's Origins are European, hence they are a foreign team.


3. I like how you want to stand up proud and prove me wrong by pointing out the 3 members of TSM are foreigners. Well hate to make you look stupid (I don't really hate it), but at the time I wrote that post, I only knew of Bjergesen. I didn't even know Amazing just had joined due to TSM not being a team I care about. Even then, thats still 60% (majority) North American at the time I wrote this post, so not sure what you hope to accomplish by trying to rewrite the past with the present.


4. Why do you constantly try to lie to prove a point? Because you cannot win with the truth. In no place in my post did I say LMQ were "rejects" or did I imply that they were "rejects". Also in no place in my post did I mention the members of LMQ by name, and to be quite honest I don't give a damn about any one of them. My post only spoke about the Chinese LPL team LMQ who could not qualify for Worlds in Season 3, so Season 4 they came to NA for the easier competition. The Chinese Organization owning them did this as a method to get as many of "his" teams into Worlds as possible, for increased profits for him.

5. the Same opportunities in China? Do you even proofread the stuff you write? They are a LPL team formed in China, and played season 3 in China in the LPL. If they had not come to North America they would have played season 4 in the LPL ....once again IN CHINA. Opportunities to prove how good they can be? Why the hell would they even come to North America to prove that if our teams are so god awful?? Why would they not stay and compete against other Chinese teams who are SO MUCH BETTER than any team than North America has, according to your opinion of our skill level?


6. I'm going to jump ahead to actual important points because most of your talk has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Concerning this highlighted number from above, all I have to say is one word to prove my point.... STARCRAFT.

7. Who said that? I sure didn't. My entire point of the ENTIRE POST, is concerning "TEAMS" not importing a player here or there. If Korean teams start coming over to North America once they see how LMQ got a free slot to worlds, without having to go through the intense skill level of their home region, then they will also start beating out the North American teams (because their skill level is just as good as China's) Also to get into the NA LCS they will go thru the challenger series. Pro OGN teams beating out our amateur challenger series teams to get that LCS slot. After 1 or 2 seasons of that, no more North American teams will even attempt to try, and the NA LCS scene will turn into China/Korea2 LCS. It happened in Starcraft this way, and it will do the exact same thing here if it is not stopped now.

8. Why do fanbois of LMQ ALWAYS do that. You try to prove a point by inserting LMQ in a list of single foreign players to insinuate that LMQ is a single Imported player over here to play on a team in our region. LMQ is a Chinese Nationalist Team. They are owned by a Chinese Nationalist Owner. They are managed by a Chinese Nationalist manager. They are coached by a Chinese Nationalist coach. They DO NOT have one aspect about them that is North American...NOT ONE.

9. Thats the problem with you people these days. You are "shake and bake" / "microwave" fans. You haven't the slightest clue what the word loyalty implies. You don't care how the regional/local team develops.... you want that winning team and YOU WANT IT RIGHT NOW! I actually feel sorry for you because you cannot feel that sensation. But oh well, it's your loss.


In closing If you had just made a strong argument for players being imported into teams over here in the NA LCS in order to strengthen our skill base, then I probably would not have ridiculed you so harshly. But the second that you twisted my words around using lies and fabrication to try and discredit that well thought out and truthful original post, you got me angry. In the future... if you want to make points in an argument against someone on a subject that they wrote....at the very least, make sure you UNDERSTAND what they wrote


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Wrath of Kon

Senior Member

08-11-2014

Iron will I feel your points are very invalid... never once did lmq or eg expect the NA scene to be easy to play in, hence eg finishing 7th both splits, but instead saw a market where esports is growing and has support from major companies. Look at most eu teams, the support for them financially is lacking and teams have slowly faded out from the power the region once was. Even players on eu teams have commented on the concern of a future for esports in Europe as the public does not support that much.

Second you should realize worlds is a joke.... the best 16 teams in the world are the 16 teams that qualified for ogn summer! The fact that there is a world tournament with only 3 korean teams is a joke. No team from any other region has a chance to win this year so to get butthurt about a spot at worlds is silly! And tbh I think a super hyped match across the world would be LMQ vs Royal club! And to be honest I think all of NA and majority of the world would be rooting for LMQ to win that match!

I want the NA scene to be great and if having foreign players and teams increases play, attracts more sponsors, and creates a deep league then im all for it!


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Ironwill

Senior Member

08-11-2014

Quote:
Wrath of Kon:
Iron will I feel your points are very invalid... never once did lmq or eg expect the NA scene to be easy to play in, hence eg finishing 7th both splits, but instead saw a market where esports is growing and has support from major companies. Look at most eu teams, the support for them financially is lacking and teams have slowly faded out from the power the region once was. Even players on eu teams have commented on the concern of a future for esports in Europe as the public does not support that much.

Second you should realize worlds is a joke.... the best 16 teams in the world are the 16 teams that qualified for ogn summer! The fact that there is a world tournament with only 3 korean teams is a joke. No team from any other region has a chance to win this year so to get butthurt about a spot at worlds is silly! And tbh I think a super hyped match across the world would be LMQ vs Royal club! And to be honest I think all of NA and majority of the world would be rooting for LMQ to win that match!

I want the NA scene to be great and if having foreign players and teams increases play, attracts more sponsors, and creates a deep league then im all for it!



I wont go all ham on you like I did the last person, but I will correct you on most of what you're trying to say....
I never said LMQ or EQ expected us to be "easy". I don't understand why people want to make up "quotations" and then tell me that I am wrong for saying it. I stated above that They too have moved to America to take advantage of the slightly lesser competitive edge of NA teams. That is the truth of the matter and I don't understand why you people keep trying to change what I'm saying to fit your own agenda for a SMEAR TACTIC.

Worlds is a joke? So I guess the Olympics are a joke? So I guess the World Cup is a joke? So the Tour de France is a joke? So Wimbledon is a joke? I can tell you that 99% of the known world disagrees with you on that statement. So you can delude yourself as much as you like but consider this. If Korea has been,and are the best 16 teams in the world... then why isn't there a picture of them holding the Season 2 Summoners Cup?
And to be honest I think all of NA and majority of the world would be rooting for LMQ to win that match! I can tell you what atleast half of the NA scene would do...they would turn off their streams, because a Chinese LPL team does not represent North America, and they have no interest watching two LPL teams duke it out. They'd rather see Prolly and Complexity duke it out with Dignitas.

The problem with you people in this generation is everything to you is about winning. The story behind teams mean nothing, the characters of teams and where they come from mean nothing. The region they are born in, or raised in, means nothing. The team fighting as an underdog scraping their way from the bottom to come to worlds to take on much more experienced competitions, mean nothing to you. You're the type of "gardener" that goes to the store and buys the GMO super corn sold there instead of planting a seed. Watching and helping it struggle along against nature to eventually rise up into a majestic beautiful source of food, sharing its journey with yourself and the world....means nothing to you.
You know its just too bad that you're not like the other 99% of the world out there. To us... growing up in an area and calling it home, defending that home, watching that home grow, representing that home...all of that to the rest of the world.... actually means something.


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Wrath of Kon

Senior Member

08-11-2014

Quote:
Ironwill:
I wont go all ham on you like I did the last kid, but I will correct you on most of what you're trying to say....
I never said LMQ or EQ expected us to be "easy". I don't understand why people want to make up "quotations" and then tell me that I am wrong for saying it. I stated above that They too have moved to America to take advantage of the slightly lesser competitive edge of NA teams. That is the truth of the matter and I don't understand why you kids keep trying to change what I'm saying to fit your own agenda for a SMEAR TACTIC.

Worlds is a joke? So I guess the Olympics are a joke? So I guess the World Cup is a joke? So the Tour de France is a joke? So Wimbledon is a joke? I can tell you that 99% of the known world disagrees with you on that statement. So you can delude yourself as much as you like but consider this. If Korea has been,and are the best 16 teams in the world... then why isn't there a picture of them holding the Season 2 Summoners Cup?
And to be honest I think all of NA and majority of the world would be rooting for LMQ to win that match! Well the problem here is...you thought. I can tell you what atleast half of the NA scene would do...they would turn off their streams, because a Chinese LPL team does not represent North America, and they have no interest watching two LPL teams duke it out. They'd rather see Prolly and Complexity duke it out with Dignitas.

The problem with you kids in this generation is everything to you is about winning. The story behind teams mean nothing, the characters of teams and where they come from mean nothing. The region they are born in, or raised in, means nothing. The team fighting as an underdog scraping their way from the bottom to come to worlds to take on much more experienced competitions, mean nothing to you. You're the type of "gardener" that goes to the store and buys the GMO super corn sold there instead of planting a seed. Watching and helping it struggle along against nature to eventually rise up into a majestic beautiful source of food, sharing its journey with yourself and the world....means nothing to you.
You know its just too bad that you're not like the other 99% of the world out there. To us... growing up in an area and calling it home, defending that home, watching that home grow, representing that home...all of that to the rest of the world.... actually means something.

First korea only had 1 organization taking league seriously in season 2.... season 3 we saw the powerhouse companies start investing and one of them won worlds. Now they've had a year of organizational preparation and they've spanked every international team when they've gotten a chance! And yes the tour de france is a joke (over half of the winners since 2000 are cheaters), world cup and Olympics are every 4 years! If they were every 1 year people would care less, which can be seen by the lack of coverage for world championships throughout the year. And the large majority of na has fallen in love with LMQ because of how hard the players are attempting to integrate themselves in American culture! And your post thats its all about winning is stupid and your reasoning is stupid. One of the reasons I enjoy lmq so much is they are taking part in their American dream. Moving over from as an immigrant and having to start from floor 1 to make it here to stay and trying their hardest. I mean growing up wasn't that what people told you America was built on that belief? I want to see the na lcs expand to 16 lcs teams. The region has a lot of money potential for even bottom teams to make and growing the system for new teams.

But I want the best teams to come to na! Why because the best teams make for very entertaining games. Would you rather watch real madrid and Barcelona or Seattle vs Portland in soccer, or a Sunday night football game compared to playoff arena football?


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Ironwill

Senior Member

08-11-2014

Quote:
Wrath of Kon:
First korea only had 1 organization taking league seriously in season 2.... season 3 we saw the powerhouse companies start investing and one of them won worlds.



LMAO! so thats it! you guys just weren't taking it seriously! I knew there HAD TO BE a reason you couldn't win lol

Arguing against you is like getting mad at a baby....there's just no reason to do it.

Peace.


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Wrath of Kon

Senior Member

08-11-2014

Quote:
Ironwill:
LMAO! so thats it! you guys just weren't taking it seriously! I knew there HAD TO BE a reason you couldn't win lol

I'm so done with you kid.... all you do is spout off your immature opinions about how the world is, and you haven't even lived HALF of it that I have...Arguing against you is like getting mad at a baby....there's just no reason to do it.

Peace.

That one team was but besides azubu ane maybe najin the actual big power companies that sponsor korean esports had not started in league yet! You are done arguing because you can't?!


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Korynth

Member

08-11-2014

No one cares if players are imported from other areas. We just want a scene where 60% of a team has to be from the region they are playing in. That is all and yes LMQ is a foreign team and by and large so is EG but they have meet the 60%, people are talking about so that point is kinda mute now.


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Grizzels

Member

08-11-2014

Simply put if LMQ wins worlds China will take the credit.