Why I hate Thornmail.

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PauIifer

Senior Member

01-20-2011

I mostly play physical dps chars, Caitlyn, Olaf, AD Ezreal, Tristana and some others.. But every game I seem to be doing really good it seems their entire team gets thornmail and then I am made useless.

This is most prominent when I'm playing Caitlyn.. I'll have a good lead usually after I build Black Cleaver and the damage gets to be too much for them to handle then BAMN thornmail. against many champs with my low health I do more than half my health in damage from just thornmail. If I was playing against tanks then this would be fine, but against any melee dps or even caster that decided he/she wanted to a bit beefier, I'm taking full damage from them while killing myself.

"Get Lifestealing" I need to get atleast two slots worth of LS to cancel out the killing of myself but not the +100 Armor.

"Get ArP" I have ArP 32 from runes/mastery 45 from Black Cleaver and maybe 15/20 from brutalizer/youmuus. ArP is MUCH more expensive than armor.

"Get magic resist/health" I also do this but as everyone knows their is a lack of MR+Health Items so I usually opt for a Frozen Mallet and Force of Nature.

I do all of this. which greatly lessens the effect of thornmail. however The 2k item canceled out all of my armor pen and cancels out 15% lifestealing (After FoN) 20+% without.

It's made worse when they get another Armor item I'm still hitting for **** after 100 or so ArP and to hit higher effectively I need lastwhisper.(which is applied after your initial is applied not before so the rest of the ArP I have is now only at 60% efficiency.

I find it funny as Caitlyn I bought Thornmail late game. and instead of attacking Yi or running away from him I attacked minions and healed off them. Yi did half his health for me. and then (after his ult wore off) I snared him and killed him.

All I'm saying is It seems extremely effective for the amount it costs. And when a Kennen a Mundo and a Vlad all have both Thornmail and Gaurdian Angel. Caitlyn's presence is very underwhelming in a teamfight.

Please note: I'm not calling for nerfs I'm just ranting. Also I'm half awake right now.


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JayceJa

Senior Member

01-20-2011

i agree

sure you can counter thornmail, but a tiny 2000 gold item requiring significantly more cost to counter. and thornmail is automatic, the tank doesnt need to do anything other than get hit in order to so hard counter a dpser

not to mention a single cheap item making an entire high risk high reward play style of glass carries inviable is stupid
see, against a thornmail, even if you have perfect initiation and positioning and kill the tank without taking a single hit you will still lose most your health

the fact that its so cheap, the fact that theres no way around it, and the fact that it costs so much to counter all make it too good an item

i think it needs reworking, it needs to be a bigger and more expensive item


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Zax Underdark

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Senior Member

01-20-2011

I main rammus and I agree Thornmail needs a nerf. 30% dmg return is the problem. Keep it 2k its a nice price but lower it to 20% dmg return or mabye even 15%.


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Kazzier

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Senior Member

01-20-2011

Sorry but all you need to do to counter thornmail is get armour pen. Granted its not a nice item to be against but it is easy counter-able and you really shouldn't be attacking the person that bought it in the first place.

Plus, its an expensive item for any hero to buy.


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TheRamenBandit

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Senior Member

01-20-2011

or stop attaking them....y'know so you don't kill yourself


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DreamPhantom

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Senior Member

01-20-2011

1. When does a whole team get thornmail just for caitlin? i mean sure she got better but unless the teams 3~4/5 physical dps, there should be almost no reason for "everyone" to get a thornmail. Sure some, includeing tanks, but defently not all.

2. I'm glad thornmail works. Hurting those unaware physical dps that realize their dieing to thornmail only after their dead. Even more so if its realize it after the game over,


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Blue101

Senior Member

01-20-2011

stop attacking them only works for the tanks, who everyone knows not to focus anyhow. the problem is when a ranged dps is the main source of damage for their team and 3 or more of the people on the other team get thornmail. this means that you can only ever effectively kill 2 people before you die in a team fight, the two without thornmail. I agree that it is a problem, and I think the solution would be to reduce the % returned to 20% because the calculation is done before armor reduces the damage. OR (I don't like this option as much) change it to return 40% of the damage they deal after armor reduces their damage this way 40% life steal is what would be needed to take no net damage from it or around 20% life steal with 50% magic damage reduction from MR.


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DreamPhantom

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Senior Member

01-20-2011

if your only source of damage is a ranged dps in a team, the i'm sry but your team composition is horrendous. Ideally you want an AP nuke to get them close to dead and your range dps to just go in and finish that off, work on another target as the AP nuke gets their skills off cooldown and nukes again and dps cleans up. That is ideally how it works in the best of situations. Given it is after all a dynamic game and "ideals" are tossed right out the window rite when you see each other.


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AntiTcb

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Senior Member

01-20-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazzier View Post
Sorry but all you need to do to counter thornmail is get armour pen. Granted its not a nice item to be against but it is easy counter-able and you really shouldn't be attacking the person that bought it in the first place.

Plus, its an expensive item for any hero to buy.
Get Magic Resistance.

If you get Armor Penetration, you're doing more damage to yourself.


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DreamPhantom

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Senior Member

01-20-2011

The only reason ur damaging yourself more without armor pen is because u have to hit more. You get 30% return damage regardless of armor pen. So even if u hit harder with armor pen, your still getting hit for the same ammount.


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