"Why do supports always get nerfed for being played out of anti-meta roles??"

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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

05-12-2014

because supports are broken as hell and only allowed to be as such in certain ways


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NobSaiboot

Senior Member

05-12-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockman View Post
See: Janna clearing entire waves without having to be in range of the enemy.
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Go on.


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TimaiosTheBoss

Senior Member

05-12-2014

"Let's make utility scale with AP"


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IS1d6d3ffc5d25bf1bdf6f0

Senior Member

05-12-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bossman POJO View Post
the moment you remove annie from bot lane support, we will take back lulu and soraka. the deal is on the table
yeahno I like playing annie bot when I get bored of thresh.


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Gespens

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Senior Member

05-12-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryoshell17 View Post
Malz wishes his wave clear was as good as early S2 Janna.


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SmokingPuffin

Senior Member

05-12-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by EUW ForumAcc View Post
The conceptual problem behind it is:

Support champions are designed to excel at helping allies. If they can hold their own against or even beat out other champions without any allies, there's no reason to pick anything else.

It's just like an AoE mage should never have the solo kill potential of a pure solo target mage.

Kinda sucks because it shoehorns supports into duo bot, but that's the thought process behind it.
I'm not really convinced it's true anymore. Support maybe used to mean this; certainly that's the design behind Janna and Sona.

Over time, they've really reduced the power of heals, buffs, and auras. For example, can we really say that the reworked Taric or Soraka now only make sense as duo laners? I don't think so. Their heals are arguably better when used on themselves, and the rest of their kits have little to do with being in a duo lane.

I think we're currently witnessing a trend towards champions with strong ally helping power moving out of the support role and into the mid lane. Orianna, Kayle, Lulu, and Karma are all really good at enhancing the combat power of allies, while Thresh, Leona, and Annie are all really good at making enemies dead.


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Kaellrus

Member

05-12-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bossman POJO View Post
the moment you remove annie from bot lane support, we will take back lulu and soraka. the deal is on the table
Deal because Annie can just rot away as underclassed in mid anyways.

Never liked Annie, or Lulu, or Soraka.

Get Lulu and Soraka back where they belong.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

05-12-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by chumbler View Post
I don't disagree on why supports are such a huge pain in solo lanes, but that's more an indication of overall bad design and support power creep than it is proof that supports should always be locked to duo lanes.
This is a logic problem--if we are to state that a support is a champion designed around being at their most valuable when around allies (by amplifying the effectiveness of others, whether through buffs, set-ups, peels, etc.), if they are allowed to be just as valuable on their own, there's a power budget issue. If their value on the team is equal to how well they are able to amplify the value of others (such as Leona's ability to set up kills in lane with her passive and chained CC), they cannot also bring equal value in a solo lane, because that means they are level with other champions designed entirely around solo value, while not actively contributing as an amplifier to another champion. That case is a Leona that can set up kills by locking down enemies, while also having the firepower to finish the job. That case is having a support that requires minimal gold to perform their role within a team, yet with carry-level farm can scale as hard as a Vayne or any other hypercarry (meaning they lose nothing from starving gold, and just win extra hard if they can get it). That's having your cake and eating it too, and I hope you can understand why it's problematic.

Quote:
However your statement that aoe mages shouldn't have the solo kill potential of single target mages is false. They should have it, because they are (if well designed) paying elsewhere for that aoe, typically in mobility or other defense, and their skills generally have a delay on them as well. Single target mages tend to deal their damage much more quickly and reliably and/or are more mobile or safer.
Close, but this is not quite as simple. In the case where Mage A has AoE damage and little else while Mage B has single-target damage and utility/mobility/etc., it is acceptable for Mage A to have as much single-target killing power as Mage B, as 100% of their power budget is focused into damage while, say, 60% of Mage B's power budget is focused into damage. In the case where Mage A has AoE and Mage B has single-target, it is not acceptable for Mage A to have as much single-target killing power as Mage B, since they're getting exactly what Mage B has (single-target killing power) plus extra (additional killing power to other units simultaneously).

It's alright for, say, Brand to have strong single-target killing power because, aside from the (fairly nonsensical) CC from his fireball, damage is where his power is budgeted. Someone like Ahri, who has AoE, mobility, crowd control, AND sustain cannot have as much killing power (in general) as Brand, because if she did, there would be no reason to play Brand.

As a comment towards the cancer that is movement creep, this is mostly a problem in much of Riot's design philosophy from mid-way through season 1 and on, where they didn't account for the level of impact mobility had on a kit (ie. the amount of power budget, say, a gap-closer takes up), and tended to default to "just slapping mobility onto a kit" to make it feel satisfying if it wasn't satisfying otherwise (I'd love to cite the Riot quote on this one, but it's getting late so I'll probably look for it later if I can remember the exact context). It's more of a two-fold problem, though, since mobile champions tend to not suffer from any power budget costs due to their mobility, and non-mobile champions don't really have much to make up for their lack of mobility (the few cases of success on this part are limited to maybe Xerath and a few others, by and large picking a non-mobile champion is a losing move).


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Doctor SwoIe

Senior Member

05-12-2014

cause they're massive cancers in any other lane. frustrating and immovable


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LtSmashFSP

Senior Member

05-12-2014

As long as you guys get to have gold as support players annie will stay bot lane. She is picked for having a stun essentially and tons of damage. People want to kill more than they want to force backs.


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