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ELI5: How is support Blitzcrank justified?

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SirLapse

Senior Member

05-16-2014

Quote:
deadlychuck:
Video isn't proof of a champion's power, i could play eventually go something like 15/2 with urgot, record it and put it on youtube. It doesn't mean urgot is a good champion. The other thing is that a normals are not an excuse for "undetermined level of skill". Thankfully there is an underlying mmr system in normals, and while it's not as strict as ranked in determining who you get placed up against, it still keeps you in approximately the correct skill range.

If nothing else, blitzcrank needs to be more predictable. One option my friend proposed was to change blitzcrank's pull into a similar mechanic as varus, vi, or xerath.

If you can see the pull being readied then it removes some of the passive zoning of blitzcrank. It would also give other supports or ADCs a chance to interrupt it while it's charging and turn that into an engage.


The video at least shows what an average player can pull off. You know, one that can make multiple mistakes.

The pressure added from successful grabs is what makes him picked very often everywhere, but his teamfight presence is limited and he only really gives advantages in skirmishes (and even then, the video still show the limitations of his kit which was the point pretty much).

Even from Madlife himself, he had no zoning pressure on the opponent and literally had to resort to repositioning and hiding himself frequently. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bGvshjsGco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bGvshjsGco)

Where in that video does he result in killing a person through purely one grab in the early game with just his carry? The Lucian/Thresh had to be more wary of the Vayne, because even when Blitzcrank's E is on CD, his impact is already that much less. So if a professional who is recognized for his godliness at support only makes impact with carefully thought out plays for Blitzcrank, how is the average player supposed to do the same without the same amount of skill? Not trying to insult other players, but the average player messes up way more than Madlife and even he had to buy mana potions and rely on blue buff because of how mana-hungry Blitzcrank's kit is.

There were no worries about Blitzcrank's zoning of the enemy team, the Vayne actually carried that pressure. And even in that game, all Madlife could do was damage by the time they were finishing up because Blitzcrank's kit is centered around early game domination. If he can't do that (meaning he goes manaless in most cases by around 5-7 min. from what I've seen in normals) then he can't help his carry for much more than getting the enemy team out of position while providing one hard CC, something that is inefficient when your carry needs to farm due to being below farm. This is why PBE tried to lower his mana costs I believe, because not every player is Madlife and even Madlife will not get blue that early every game.

As for you, deroB...

The reason I'm not very expectant of your game experience is because you have stated no actual grounds for zoning. You aren't your carry when you play, so you have to watch them too as an obligation. So watching supports is also invaluable experience as well, is it not? Not to mention that when you're speaking of the theoretical (games other than your own), you don't need to be able to put it into use in an actual game, you only need to see others do it in order to complete an observation. That means that even though Blitzcrank seems unfair on paper, his games don't exactly show him as being unfair because people can still win. When a person cannot clearly create the scenarios of an OP champion/kit/skill to me, I just tend to think of that person's experience level as "not based on the competitive level." Bad habit I admit and I apologize, but there are more than enough games around where people have beaten Blitzcrank. Over 3000 games have been played with him over the past month and his win rate is still around 50% against most matchups, pretty stable if you ask me.

The video with Madlife posted there though shows that his tankiness is pretty much decided by facing champions who have a decent early game but scale better into late game. Leona's early game is much better though, and that's where he cannot be tanky enough due to her overpowering kit that not only increases damage through her passive, but has a ton of CC combined with tankiness. Tankiness is pretty much Blitzcrank's worst enemy because they already can take a ton of his damage early game. Late game drops by and all Blitz is doing really is damage instead of any particularly strong CC. This is why his kit is lackluster, the meta. Leona is literally played in more than 6000 matches with just this last month, and she forces Blitzcrank's lane further into the game, disallowing his early game advantage. Thresh also has around the same effect of forcing Blitz later into the game, unless the Blitzcrank is particularly skilled and somehow manages to prevent Thresh from protecting his carry (although this is sort of based on the jungler too). He has an amazing time against champions who rely on small-hitbox CC and range (like Nami and especially Janna) or champions who rely on sustain/counter-harass in the lane phase (like Sona, Taric, Lulu, Soraka, and Karma). Taric has a rather bursty kit as well though, so Blitzcrank beating him is more of a skill-matchup and is actually based around who initiates better. If his kit were less based on initiation, then he would actually do worse in the meta because of the sustain champions that I previously named.

This is also why changing his Q specifically while leaving his normal kit would hurt him more than help him, even if it's making his initiates like Leona's or Thresh's where he drags himself to them. Darius has a lower range grab, but he's a Fighter and can actually take damage while keeping consistent DPS throughout the game, and the grab itself also has a passive to boost said damage. Tanks' damage are supposed to fall off later in the game unless they are built with AP or AD accordingly, which would negate their tankiness entirely and make them vulnerable to burst. The problem with Leona and Thresh is that they gain free stats and thus can build more freely. This is why his counter-picks are viable and actually can overpower Blitzcrank, whereas for old Katarina and old Sion, this was not held to be true as they kept teamfight presence at all stages of the game. Since Blitzcrank's win % is even stable against squishier champions he is meant to counter, this really brings the question of "where exactly is his kit overpowering?" If you play mainly supports who rely on counter-harass and sustaining harass rather than champions who are meant to initiate and counter-initiate (note that this is different from disengaging), then of course Blitz is going to have an easier time with you.


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deroB

Member

05-16-2014

Quote:
SirLapse:
The reason I'm not very expectant of your game experience is because you have stated no actual grounds for zoning.
Fact: the threat of his Q is enough power to zone. You've tried to debate that with examples of counterpicks, specific scenarios, late game relevance, etc. If you think those justify his design, like I've said, that's your prerogative.
Quote:
SirLapse:
That means that even though Blitzcrank seems unfair on paper, his games don't exactly show him as being unfair because people can still win. When a person cannot clearly create the scenarios of an OP champion/kit/skill to me, I just tend to think of that person's experience level as "not based on the competitive level." Bad habit I admit and I apologize, but there are more than enough games around where people have beaten Blitzcrank. Over 3000 games have been played with him over the past month and his win rate is still around 50% against most matchups, pretty stable if you ask me.
I've never said, nor meant to imply, that he's OP. Hence: This is about Blitzcrank's design, not whether he's a good or bad pick at the moment as the first line of this thread (which I've even quoted to you). You've repeatedly talked about his lackluster late game, yet not contributed any suggestions. Once again, if you think his balance, design, and place in the meta are fine, that's your prerogative. If not, let's discuss what feels off.
Quote:
SirLapse:
This is also why changing his Q specifically while leaving his normal kit would hurt him more than help him
Obviously, which is why I've never suggested that:
  1. Go to my last post: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4483791&page=6#post47139132
  2. Read the quotes of myself that are towards the bottom
  3. Realize that you're going in circles


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SirLapse

Senior Member

05-16-2014

Quote:
deroB:
Fact: the threat of his Q is enough power to zone. You've tried to debate that with examples of counterpicks, specific scenarios, late game relevance, etc. If you think those justify his design, like I've said, that's your prerogative.


So you're going to write them off as irrelevant (note that I'm getting this from you constantly saying prerogative but it seems to be an acknowledgement rather than a consideration) to his kit design when he's meant to be playing in League of Legends and not something like DoTA2? This is entirely why game balance and kit toxicity is mostly based on how its affecting solo queue in ranked and the tip-top of the competitive level. I've given you the numbers, his Q isn't enough to even pass a 60% win rate... Why are you being so difficult on his Q in the first place when plenty of players have the ability to not only bait, but respond with champions like Lucian, Graves, Ezreal, Vayne, Sivir and Caitlyn? That's a great number of carries, and the other carries have positioning strategies instead of direct jukes. It has clearly shown why his kit isn't that overpowering in the early game but gives enough of a good trade-off so that he has an obvious advantage to give to his carry... He drops this advantage as the game goes forward but isn't irrelevant like Galio if he didn't necessarily get that far in the laning phase. Seriously, you're really going to use Blitzcrank's kit as "feast or famine" when it can be said for Galio or Pantheon? Because I literally feel pain in looking at game progress with each of them when they don't get early kills... If you would like to mention that you rather meant "too hit or miss," you're going to have to clearly define the term instead of "he doesn't do as much damage if he misses his Q" (which is my current opinion of what you're really trying to get across), and that isn't enough reason to actually call his kit problematic (as you could see from both Madlife's video and especially that other guy).

Quote:
I've never said, nor meant to imply, that he's OP. Hence: This is about Blitzcrank's design, not whether he's a good or bad pick at the moment as the first line of this thread (which I've even quoted to you). You've repeatedly talked about his lackluster late game, yet not contributed any suggestions. Once again, if you think his balance, design, and place in the meta are fine, that's your prerogative. If not, let's discuss what feels off.


Dear lord no. I've literally been running on the assumption that YOU specifically have been getting game difficulties from Blitzcrank and thus is the main reason for this topic. You've mentioned that his Q is a strong influence and say it has great zoning impact whether it's on cooldown or not. You then go on to say that his kit is lackluster during late game when few scenarios were mentioned... Where the heck is the consistency? You may agree with me in that he falls off later in the game, but you've never personally stated how yourself except for stating that his kit relies on Q. That is not an inherent weakness and Madlife was still able to work with it against a champion that normally counters Blitzcrank... You've never presented examples on where your support pick has made a bigger impact than Blitzcrank in the game, and you've never presented any significant evidence as to how Blitzcrank's zoning occurs. In my last post, I even explained that the Vayne had the pressure and not god-hook Madlife. What ideal situations are you running here that are actually saying any response is inadequate after a Q>E combo or as Q is being launched? You've stated that a response during his Q before it hits is punishing (as you stated no alternatives to Flash and said only once every 5 minutes) and that it screws over whoever got hit, but I could say that for any initiator in the game for their high speed/ large AoE ultimates... And you could clearly see in the video that the trades were only in Madlife's favor because the enemy Thresh didn't really land his Q in comparison... are you going to ignore one of the highest levels of play where Blitzcrank actually needed to win trades instead of auto-kill on Q>E>R to win the lane...? Really?

Quote:

Obviously, which is why I've never suggested that:
  1. Go to my last post: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4483791&page=6#post47139132
  2. Read the quotes of myself that are towards the bottom
  3. Realize that you're going in circles


Me? Going in circles? I was stating that last paragraph mostly as a general statement because we are speaking about Blitzcrank here... It's pretty important to state that his kit improvements would have to completely change his play style, thus no longer really being the Blitzcrank that everyone actually picks him for. The mana cost improvements that PBE is trying out are self-explanatory improvements that focus on not changing his Q and play style.

I'm only trying to optimize the champion and continue progression of the conversation until an equilibrium of balance and design is met...it doesn't look like you're aiming for an end-point and it seems more to me that the mana cost adjustments for his early game aren't even a viable fix to you.


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Satellier

Senior Member

05-16-2014

Quote:
deroB:
Fact: the threat of his Q is enough power to zone.


That much at least is 100% true, when playing against a blitz you dont go anywhere NEAR that turret under pain of pull. In the opposite situation if you are pushed back to your turret, still not even remotely safe.


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deroB

Member

05-17-2014

Quote:
SirLapse:
So you're going to write them off as irrelevant (note that I'm getting this from you constantly saying prerogative but it seems to be an acknowledgement rather than a consideration)
Note that you're trying to read between the lines when there is nothing there. I disagree that counterpicks are enough justification, simple as that.

E and R for followup CC obviously adds threat to his Q, its not just about one thing. Q's design is low risk but, like you've said, instead has a large cooldown and mana cost to compensate. I think more counterplay would be a better tuning knob than those.
Quote:
SirLapse:
You've stated that a response during his Q before it hits is punishing (as you stated no alternatives to Flash and said only once every 5 minutes) and that it screws over whoever got hit, but I could say that for any initiator in the game for their high speed/ large AoE ultimates...
Notice anything out of place?

And too hit or miss is self-explanatory:
Quote:
SirLapse:
Look, once you're caught, your chance of survival is pretty low.
Quote:
SirLapse:
Dear lord no. I've literally been running on the assumption that YOU specifically have been getting game difficulties from Blitzcrank and thus is the main reason for this topic.
And whose fault is that?
Quote:
SirLapse:
You've mentioned that his Q is a strong influence and say it has great zoning impact whether it's on cooldown or not.
Where?
Quote:
SirLapse:
You may agree with me in that he falls off later in the game, but you've never personally stated how yourself except for stating that his kit relies on Q.
Unless he can catch someone with Q, Q & R are more useful to be saved for interrupting and peeling. Unlikely to get more than 1 cast of each per teamfight. W's attack speed doesn't help much. E's cooldown is short enough to make an impact, but since the rest of his kit doesn't give much defense nor scale with defensive stats like other tank supports, staying in the fray to use repeatedly is difficult.
Quote:
SirLapse:
I'm only trying to optimize the champion and continue progression of the conversation until an equilibrium of balance and design is met...it doesn't look like you're aiming for an end-point
Contribute an idea then. That's the end-point.
Quote:
SirLapse:
and it seems more to me that the mana cost adjustments for his early game aren't even a viable fix to you.
Of course not. Once again, I think his design can be much healthier. Cooldowns and mana costs are band-aid fixes, especially on a champion this old.