How to "deny" in LoL

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Zeraph

Senior Member

01-08-2010

I see people complain sometimes about lack of denying (from DoTA: killing your own minions to deny them exp/gold) in LoL, well you still can; it has just taken a different form and only certain champs can do it successfully over and over. And since this is more of a team game, it makes sense it would be delegated to certain champs (and take more skill.)

Champs that can deny are champs that are not only good at early lane harassing, but also have some form of defense. Reasoning shortly.

The best champs to do it with: Ashe, Teemo, Soraka, Sivir, Heimerdinger, Twisted Fate, and Karthus (the most difficult).

Champs you can do it with, but tend to need to be up against less skilled opponents than you (and/or have a good laning partner that is in this category or above): Nidalee, Mundo, Anivia, Janna, Fiddlesticks (and probably a few others, this category is looser, and depends more on who you're up against.)

Tactics: Harass them until they fear you and are low enough they move back toward their tower. Should be doable by level 3. Don't hit your creeps except for last hits for the gold. You want to keep the creep fight away from the enemy champs as much as possible. Keep the champs back as much as possible. When your creeps finally do make it to their tower throw a long range shot at them such as TF's wild card (or feint, will work if they're low enough and they fear you enough) so they have to back off and get even less kills.

If you do this properly not only will they miss out on some experience because creeps will die far away from them and tons of KBs on creeps, but they will have to go back to the fountain several times before 6, and/or have to buy more pots and regen items they wouldn't have had to normally. The biggest mistake I see people make when they get an excellent harassing routine down is that they kill the minions even when they're at full health, i.e. they push. You should only be attacking the minions for the last hits for the gold. If the champs are back at the tower, and the enemy minions at full health, just sit there in the bushes and watch the mini map.

The reasoning behind champs: Not only do you need harassing potential, but you need to be able to park yourself between the minions in the center, and the enemy champs and their tower. So you need some sort of defensive potential so you don't die if they decide to break out. Ashe has slows/speed, teemo can blind, soraka can heal, etc.

Champ Strategies
Teemo: either mana regen (health pots) and spam blinding dart (Q) or boots and 1 point in move quick and points in toxic shot for darting in and out to poison them. I much prefer Q w/ mana regen. Having near unlimited darts is awesome. And you'll almost certainly need the blind. Don't bother too much with it till you get your 2nd point in darts. But if you're up against champs that don't have long range attacks to knock you out of move quick you'll be golden and they should never catch you, only have to worry about stray minion aggro. By level 4 I prefer 2 1 1 (skill distribution) with a meki pendant). Pretty much the best of both worlds.

Ashe: Very similar strat to teemo, either mana regen (health pots) for volley spam, or boots to dart in and out. Except I prefer the opposite on Ashe. With her skill to charge up crit chance, and volley not needing much points to be effective. Have fun. Lvl 1 boots is all she needs early on to kite the **** out of most champs. She's usually fast enough to auto attack and retreat before a ranged hero can even retaliate! (Unless their range is greater, experiment, I can't tell you what will work for you, will probably depend a lot on latency).

Soraka: Silence(infuse) and Starcall + auto attack. Not much they can do being silenced. Dart in and out though. Don't stay in range past one star fall volley. Almost any items will work for her. She's not terribly fast in the first place, so try mana regen, you'll want your ability for silence, not wasting it on your mana bar. The key to her is doing this while the other champ is distracted so you don't get retaliation.

Sivir: She can be a bit hard vs good people. Mostly because it will require spamming boomerang blade (if they're close enough to get hit with stray richochets then you're not denying them much.) And since it requires such spam, and its almost impossible without full mana regen runes + meki pendant, you'll need to use spell shield very craftily to get mana back. Vs good people (that feint to get you to use your spell shield early) she can be harder to pull this off with than karthus. However, it depends on the hero makeup, if they're melee, stray richochets may be enough. Only you can make that call, will also depend a lot on your laning partner if you didn't take mid.

Karthus: Priority lay waste, 1 point in wall of pain and defile. Use wall in conjunction with laywaste to hurt them when you get the chance. But make sure your lane partner is with you. Your fragile. If they both focus you, gg. The key to Karthus pulling this off is getting good with hitting them with lay waste. It has a good range and does great damage (does double vs single target). Just don't be as agressive early on levels 1-2. Take it easy, take safe pot shots. Wait till 3 before you really start to target them.

Heimer: Priority micro rockets (except at level 1, still get turrets, save most of your mana till 3, with 2nd point into micro rockets like most of these builds), not much else to say. They auto hit. If you can get enough mana regen to keep the spam up they really hurt and there's almost no counter early game.

Twisted Fate: One of the best. Can start almost right away if your lane partner is competent. Put 1st point in pick a card. Chase people with gold card above your head. 2nd and 3rd go into wild card. Rest is up to you but I'd recommend gate. Go meki pendant + pots.

Note: this is general strategy for getting to level 6 first. Then ganking may take priority. Or you may want to keep them down if the laning phase looks like it may go on longer than normal. You shouldn't need/plan to return to the fountain before level 6-7.

General strategy. By level 3 look for a skill that has good harassing potential and make sure to have a 2nd point in it. Have mana regen and health pots. Make sure to get a point in your slow/defensive type skill as they will almost certainly head back to the fountain and then try to gank you at full health. Be ready to counter this. But by then you should be a level higher, even if you're at 90% health, you should be able to win/push them back. Just remember, its more about gorilla tactics, hit and run, rather than king of the kill, stand and fight. If they need to think they won for a few seconds then let them think that and run back to your tower, let your pots heal you up and start it all over again.

Rest of the champs: They tend to vary too much for me to give advice on. If you really want to ask a question, I suppose I could try to answer.

Disclaimer: Any champs can dominate a lane, this is a guide to deny roughly equal skilled opponents, not a roflstomp. I'm sure there's been a blitzcrank and gangplank duo that have dominated a lane (especially through ganking which is a different but riskier strategy since the gank can be turned around on you), however with these recommended champs it can be a regularity (and more importantly fairly safe) once you get it down.

Q: Why don't I see this more often?
A: Either their lane partner is sucking by pushing, not helping, etc. or they are just being lazy. It takes a lot of work and vigilance to watch 2 champs, the mini map, *and* still get last hits on creeps. OR they just don't know about it; it seems to be in everyone's head that its impossible to "deny" anyone anything.


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Aregionius

Senior Wrenchman

01-08-2010

I think a lot of what you're saying here is important and helps to setup an early game strategy. That said, I almost wouldn't call it a "How to deny" guide but more of a "How to play aggressively"

Especially at early levels, if you're playing against a decent team, regular damage skills like you're recommending as denial tools from champs like Ashe, Soraka, Karthus, etc. won't actual deny enemies a last hit. Especially if someone's using a regen item, taking the 50-60 damage early on from something like Karthus' lay waste is worth the 18+ gold from a minion kill.

For an actual denial in a closer sense to how it was used in DoTA, I'd say heroes like Teemo as you recommended with blind interrupting the enemy's ability to do damage, also included in that would be Corki and Heimer (with grenade if you're good enough to pre-empt a last hit) or heroes that can actual deny like Gankplank with Raise Morale.

Quote:
Tactics: Harass them until they fear you and are low enough they move back toward their tower.
This is very true and important for any game, but it's also 1000 times easier to type than it is to teach. If you're overly agressive and get just as low as the opposing hero, that significantly lowers the fear factor.


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Zeraph

Senior Member

01-08-2010

It's true. This is easy to say, hard to do. I'm a level 30 player with a lot of experience, and I can't pull it off every time vs certain champs or vs certain skill. However, I have pulled it off vs a surprising number of opponents, such as a cho'gath with a regrowth pendant (I was teemo). You'd be surprised at how well this can work *once you get it down.*

EDIT: Karthus was also an iffy pick and like I said, the most difficult. But if you can get lay waste off vs single champs its doing closer to 100 a few seconds. It's actually one of the best damage per second skills in the game. And you're right, perhaps I should include gang up there for raise morale. Its just most don't up that skill first. Tough call. I think I'll leave the guide how it is, cause I know it works.

2nd edit: The other thing is, this I suppose is a beginner guide to an advanced strat. I'm assuming that you're already fairly competent with the game. However it can also be used as an introductory guide/thread to the idea of the "new" denial system. For instance, it goes with out saying that if you're teemo use your point 1 blind skill to keep auto attacks from last hits...but if its an annie with energize up don't go near unless you really have the upper hand to avoid retaliation.


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Morzas

Senior Member

01-08-2010

If you really want to deny, play Gangplank and take Raise Morale at level one. Your lane partner had better be ranged // have an AoE farming skill though, or you're gonna lose your tower quick.

Good partners for Denyplank: Sion, Sivir, Taric, Nasus, Morgana, Alistar, Soraka, Janna, etc...

EDIT: Also, yeah, keeping your enemies away from the creep wave with space control is the very best method for denying. It's one of the reasons why a solo mid Soraka is so powerful, she can out-harass pretty much anybody and tank creeps with her armor buff.

EDIT 2: This video will help you learn to do this: http://kassadin.blogspot.com/2009/11...e-control.html


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IMSavior

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Senior Member

01-08-2010

pirate is only one who can truly deny creeps


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Zeraph

Senior Member

01-08-2010

Problem with denyplank is it has a ~25 second CD. Not going to be doing much denying with that. But worth mentioning.


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Zeraph

Senior Member

01-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by sAviOrZelda View Post
pirate is only one who can truly deny creeps
See, that's the attitude I'm trying to dispel. If they aren't there to last hit the creep, how is that not denying? If they aren't there to receive the experience, because they're too far away, how is that not denying?


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TomatoBisque

Adjudicator

01-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeraph View Post
See, that's the attitude I'm trying to dispel. If they aren't there to last hit the creep, how is that not denying? If they aren't there to receive the experience, because they're too far away, how is that not denying?
There's a difference between preventing them from last hitting, which makes them not get gold, and denying, which lets you control the wave better and reduces their EXP gain.


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Tyrfang

Senior Member

01-08-2010

I always thought denying was actively preventing them from getting a last hit, whether by killing the creep yourself or by throwing skill shot that he has to dodge instead of getting a kill.

What you describe is more along the lines of harass + zone control, which is effective when it works well.


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Zeraph

Senior Member

01-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomatoBisque View Post
There's a difference between preventing them from last hitting, which makes them not get gold, and denying, which lets you control the wave better and reduces their EXP gain.
Shrug, sounds the same to me. Pah-tae-toe, Poe-tat-o.


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