Guinsoo is working on Fiora

First Riot Post
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Lizbeans

Junior Member

04-07-2014

god bless the fiora rework

as a fiora player, i cannot wait.


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FINALDESTINATI0N

Senior Member

04-07-2014

@Guinsoo

First of all, I'm glad to see that within a short time span of you returning you're already engaging in community discussion and reworking a champion for that matter. I want to discuss an idea I have for a passive that I think would fit in thematically with who she is as a character. The regen passive as it is right now is pretty bland and doesn't really add a lot to who she is. What if for her new passive, she gained armor or mr depending based on a % of what the greater stat (AD or AP) is on the champion she's "dueling"? the passive could stack up to 4 times like her old one and could only gain either armor or mr, not both. I feel like something like this would solidify her role and theme as a duelist.


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XLeetskeetX

Senior Member

04-07-2014

At least it's not ****in' Scruffy


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Seacrux

Junior Member

04-07-2014

Wow this sucks, Fiora is one of my favorite champs..her kit is good as it is. Everyone saying she has no identity or sucks or w/e must've played her once and given up. She's really, really good when played right. Man...I'm so scared of how this will turn out, especially since I planned to main her through this season. This is honestly the only time I've even cared at all about a rework..
Not to mention the future bandwagon, ugh

edit:hmm maybe I jumped to conclusions without reading more, I like the idea of having the control and having the kit be more mechanical. Where it's going seems good as long as she is still viable in ranked still..kinda looking forward to seeing more now. Not looking forward to a bandwagon/bans on her still though


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wehateteemo

Senior Member

04-07-2014

Welcome back guinbrooooooooooooo!


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Saiffxiii

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Senior Member

04-07-2014

As it seems that Riposte is getting a lot of attention for her rework, is it possible that she will finally have an animation for it?

Other than that, I'm glad Fiora is at least getting looked into. The only thing I'm worried about is her ult changing, because Blade Waltz was perfect for dealing fast damage, while at the same time invulnerable, and being able to lifesteal your HP back. There was really no other amazing ability like that in the game.


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Norr1N

Senior Member

04-08-2014

Yes, please rework E into an actual gap creator/linked escape that doesn't involve hitting something three times first. Especially without her invulnerability or any CC whatsoever to self-peel, not to mention not-so-tanky stats. With the reduced cooldowns on basic abilities, just remove the steroid as most fencers aren't going to be looking for a prolonged up-close confrontation, but rather finding the ideal moment to dart in and out, dealing precise blows.

I know from having partaken in some fencing in high school, you want to control the distance between you and your opponent. Constantly stepping back and forth with coordinated movements.

Maybe let E have two charges which build up, and involve a short dash/sidestep (Riven/Vayne range, not Flash level) so you can Q in, E to the side, Q again, then E away or chase.

I think one thing everyone agrees on is a more useful passive. If you remove the steroid as I suggested above, you could replace the passive with a more offensive-orientated skill which preserves the teamfight utility of her live ult e.g. -

Basic attacks reduce target's armor by 4/8/12 for 4 seconds, stacking upto 3 times
Bundle the above with the buffed W to work on spell effects as you'll be removing her invulnerability (doesn't need to be for AOE damage, single target is plenty - allows for more effective counter picks). Let Q proc on-hits (component that would be removed from her live ult and only means of potential sustain after replacing passive) whilst making it dash through the target akin to a faster Yasuo E to mimic her ult in form. Then throw in the new CDR ult (minus the bonus armor pen - moved to passive), and voilą!

Thoughts and impressions, Guinsoo-san?

Above all else, i'd like to see W buffed (but don't lose the basic attack deflect, keep it single target spells/effects only.. 1v1 duel theme), and E to be reworked into an actual short-ranged dash/blink of some sort. I'm not fussed about her ult changes tbh, more into the basic game flow.

P.S. +1 to weaving in parry dagger animations into her Riposte.


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pandaleon

Member

04-08-2014

One thing that I feel is suppose to happen with fioras kit is if you comitt to a fight with your Q, using both casts for a strong all-in, it should sacrifice the second cast as a disengage, reposition, or dodge tool versus your enemy. Yet she stil gets a free pass for response damage that an opponite could do to her even if she goes all-in because of her active on W and the regen/lifesteal she gains back from attacking. This makes playing versus her really annoying because damage you do to her won't stick and attacking during an exchange hurts you more then her.
Post level 6 add the the untargetable duration from her ult and a hydra's return healing and you ends up allowing her to completly destroy her target, coming out with near no damage on her or worse blazing fast with her E's buffs into a 5v4.
The easiest solution would be to tone down her damage but that would make her useless. All-in'g is fun on fiora, her skills feel like they fit her well, with all the damage and jumping/evasion but she needs to have a sticking reprocution for choosing to fight and clear windows to capatalize against her...





What if her duelest passive is removed, so she will not have that strong recovery regen afer fighting. The active from reposte can becomes her new passive since the ability is had to detect/reconize.
-every 10 seconds fiora parries the next basic attack and deals damage to the attacker. Works against champions and monsters.
( or maybe something like thornmail or annie`s molten shield )
-returns x amount of spell and auto attack damage dealt to her.


Make her Q a single unit-targeted dash so the burst from two dashes wont be so sudden and give a bit of counter play window (maybe move the passive attack damage from Reposte here? Or to her E ?)


Moved the second dash to a new W that keeps the whole evasion theme and removes the invisable power the old one was giving in trades. Also something that makes her take the choice of should I use this ability to attack or for defense?
- Fiora dashes to targeted location cleansing any cc and ignoreing any adverse effects [grievous wounds, vision, traps, attackspeed or movespeed slows]. If no effects or cc are removed fiora will deal damage upon arival to that location.
Think of the leblanc style outplays one could do with cdr and this Q+W combos


Finally I think that her ult as is should Be a bit faster/shorter and have a clear Marker like Zeds ult does so you know On who she is going to land.


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ChaosRoulette

Junior Member

04-08-2014

I want to chime in on the Fiora rework for a number of reasons. Firstly I am a fencer. Ive competed for 8 years and when i first started play LoL Fiora was free that week and i played the **** out of her. Cause fencing is awesome. And having a fencer champ was the most BAMF thing ever to me. And while she was fun she wasnt really a fencer. Sure she had the right skill names but they didnt feel like what fencing and dueling is.

Fencing, in its modern and traditional ideals, is about timing and distance. Both to avoid your opponent scoring or, you know, death. So making Fiora more mobile is the best decision ever. She needs a gap creator and a gap closer. I think Lunge should stay as it is. Cause lunging is a basic of basics in fencing.

I think her E needs to be some kind of retreat mechanic (i think the speculation has it called "disengage" which really will only work if it acts similar to fizz's E in that Fiora would dash away and be untargetable. I feel this way because a disengage in fencing is the deception of a single blade action to avoid a parry. And I think this idea is a good one albiet it would need an appropriate Cooldown.)

The idea of turning her W into a double cast is fine. If we follow through on the Disengage idea i feel that leaving her riposte skill as a thematically true skill would be a little much. Perhaps a disarm skill that cuts incoming damage by a percent? Or maybe leave it as is and make the skill cap really high: ie a high risk high reward skill.

Blade waltz as is, Is an awesome skill that is fun to use. But does not fit thematically with a fencer mentality. You rarely want to all in as a fencer because it is too risky (read: fencers who do/did this lose/died). I like the idea that it changes the basic spells into free casts per X many/X time but maybe there are some other options. It bears pondering on.

All in all i like the way this is going but i am fearfull that overbuffing her will happen or the implementation of these will not happen. So i implore you to be carefull with Fiora.


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Norr1N

Senior Member

04-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
Originally Posted by Gixia
How is it nothing like Fiora at all? Riposte clearly now blocks spells on top of auto-attacks. With a 0.75 second CD, you might as well be untargetable in a duel (you know, because she's a duelist). It would take multiple people piling on top of her to get through that, and even then she still is gonna have outs, because look at one of those skills listed and the implication of what it does. Disengage, with the implication looking like it's basically reverse Lunge. Lunge in, Disengage out, Riposte->Thrust in, Lunge, Disengage, Lunge, Riposte->Thrust, Disengage, etc. Keeping in mind as well that you don't even need to Riposte every thing the opponent does, because if it's a skillshot, it'll be hard for them to hit you with you dancing all around them. If you're a skilled player, you just classic Blade Waltzed them, except you had to actually hit buttons instead of sitting back and watching it go on its own for a couple seconds so now suddenly you look more pro. Plus you have more control over it. Man, remember when you just really wanted to focus a certain target, but there were multiple opponents there so who Blade Waltz targeted was beyond your control? You can fix that now.
This is definitely what we're striving for. If you break Blade Waltz down to its primal components, it's a bunch of dashes, it makes you invulnerable, and it does damage. All of those pieces are there on her kit already (with a few enhancements for example to the Riposte).
This. So much. Please Guinsoo.

~

I'd like to propose something. I'll try to keep it short and simple, so please bear with me. This is in response to the cast system you currently propose, and the dual activation of W (which essentially makes it a 3rd Q by the sounds of it).

THE SETUP

To begin with, let's say Fiora's E is in fact a short range dash/sidestep (equivalent to half her Q range i.e. 300 units). In addition, Q now proc's on-hits like her ultimate used to (considering she's suppose to be effectively a melee ADC, proc'ing AA damage as much as possible would be a necessity), but have it pass through her target if they are close like a faster, longer ranged Yasuo E to mimic her old ultimate's form. As Q now proc's on-hits, and her playstyle should gravitate towards diving in/out, the attack speed steroid on E is also removed (something I know you're all for trying to pull off) but the autoattack reset retained.

THE PUNCHLINE

Now, running with the rapid casting idea, and based off the current and old dual ability casts; what if you implemented a charge system on Q and E. Maximum of 2 charges, taking a longer period of time to build up, with a 0.75 second cooldown inbetween successive casts (see where i'm going with this?).

Have W function as is, castable on the move against large monster/champion attacks, but when parrying an attack successfully, grants a charge to Q/E (essentially the second W cast you're proposing being made available - the Riposte, if there's < 2 charges) and halves W's cooldown making the CDR on the skill invaluable and demanding precise timing to maintain maximum uptime.

Then, when you hit the ultimate, the limiter comes off and the maximum charges on Q and E is bumped up to 5 charges - 6 total bonus casts as suggested, which are granted instantly (like you said, cooldowns would be reset anyway on your version). For the next ~10s, Fiora becomes manaless. After ~10s, any unspent bonus charges expire, reverting back to the default 2 maximum.

THE PREEMPTIVE STRIKE

Doing this would prevent abuse of W, which sounds overpowered beyond the initial buff if it was firing every 0.75s. I can already hear the qq about the lack of counterplay at higher brackets. I'd rather just have the spell buffed to work on basic attacks and spells/effects, with the bonus charges and CDR rewarded for pulling it off outside its basic deflect function. This would help more for when your ult is down, and during laning where someone with mana costs and no real sustain can survive against poke. It would be the high-risk, high-reward skill. The deciding factor. If it was spammable, it would negate this and feel less rewarding. I mean, that's why we have E, to dodge anything else thrown her way skillfully and elegantly. Not stand still and spam Q, W, Q, W, Q, etc.

Not to mention this charge/cast system would alleviate balancing issues with people Q'ing all the casts your version gives them (to the point where you overnerf it's base damage/ratios, despite removing her AS steroid) or hopping one end of the map to the other with E (as funny as that would look).

Finally, it would make the transition from playing with normal cooldowns to almost no cooldowns less jarring, allowing for a more consistent pace for players (simply giving them more "steps" to play with using R), as fencers always have to be in top form, ready to duel at any moment against unforeseen challengers!! xp

~

What do you think? Particularly about the points and issues raised in the latter section, and my proposed solution?

On a side note, I hope W does indeed get a deflect animation using Fiora's parry dagger, and she can sheathe her blade when out of combat.

UPDATE:

My idea for a more useful, melee-oriented passive which scales throughout the game -

Duelist

Being dealt or dealing damage to an enemy unit applies a debuff stack to the target for 4 seconds. Each stack makes Fiora more receptive to the targets attacks, reducing incoming damage from that target by 5% (upto a maximum of 4 stacks i.e. 20% damage reduction). This effect is applied individually amongst enemy combatants

This is to help compensate a little for the lack of invulnerability (parrying individual attacks even once a second isn't the same), as well as for the lack of CC for self-peel and the longer lasting duels in general. In addition to supplementing her squishy base stats, and for a better chance at surviving in the jungle (& teamfights) if you're planning to take her down that route. Like W, needn't work on turrets.

Also fits into the duelist fantasy as the duel progresses and her skills and reflexes are honed enough to adapt and predict enemy attack patterns. Would also showcase her susceptibility to third party interference (ganks super effective!), who she would start off with no resistance against, making whoever drew first blood gain a minor edge.