Guinsoo is working on Fiora

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BlackAndSilver

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
Yeah to be honest I'm not super stoked with where the (new) passive is at, it's a fairly generic steroid that we plan to replace with something more relevant once we get a good grasp for exactly how her gameplay flows. I have several ideas for different ones I'd like to try out to encourage various target selection/gameplay flow.
Can you please give more of an explanation as to why you're scrapping Fiora other than "LOL SHE NOT FENCER LIKE"?

Do you think she's OP? Do you think she's UP? Is it cause some pathetic little bronze scrub (teemoxnidalee) spammed the forums on multiple accounts for weeks on end complaining about Fiora?

I really feel like there HAS to be more reason to completely scrap a champion besides the fact you changed your mind about your original theme that you guys already created years ago.


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HoweYouDrewin

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ResoluteContrast View Post
I'm honestly very excited for this rework, but please, please, please don't replace her ult. I think that is what makes Fiora, Fiora. A fencer dancing around her enemies finding their weak points.
With the new ult in mind, your Q is basically an ultimate, but you can choose who to dash to.
The only difference would be the healing, unless you have spell vamp.
This is assuming the Q hasn't changed, but it very well could (probably will)


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XxStrikerBl45txX

Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ResoluteContrast View Post
I'm honestly very excited for this rework, but please, please, please don't replace her ult. I think that is what makes Fiora, Fiora. A fencer dancing around her enemies finding their weak points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4


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FoxMindedGuy

Senior Member

04-06-2014

I think that ultimate warrants that Fiora has no mana costs on any spells. Make her a resourceless champion like Katarina.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
I have several ideas for different ones I'd like to try out to encourage various target selection/gameplay choices.
Something like bonuses to hitting someone who has hit you the most or the like? The classic League duelist is perhaps Jax-- the system that in 1v1, if you keep toe-to-toeing him, he's probably going to win.

So will Fiora though some means be able to beat Jax in a 1v1 sword/lamppost fight? (Non-lore, of course. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
That's a good question that I think as a design team we haven't fully solved - what exactly should a melee ADC's power curve look like with respect to time? I think we did make strides with the new Yi and Yasuo.
So the issue I have with those two, particularly Yasuo, is the whole 'feast or famine' thing. Yasuo's main gameplay mode is perhaps 'get gold advantage'->'gapclose and burst'. He's not remaining in these fights for long doing continuous damage, he's titan-dashing and blasting a squishy.

And the reason he does this is because right now, if he doesn't, the range advantage will just explode him. (Which tends to be what happens if he's ever behind.)

So then you get the power creep of Wind Wall, which to be honest is Black King Bar, but implemented in the anti-fun way of invalidating characters like Ashe by just holding the ability up.

Yi, you know he's supposed to be the timespace folding wuju blademaster who strikes twice (and disappears)-- that is really cool. But he can't do it now. Just not mobile/resilient enough to move around the the battlefield constantly hitting things and dodging arrows. Because arrows are perhaps largely undodgable now.

Maybe it just requires all damage to be toned down, increasing engagement duration? Like, in Dota, Sniper's good. He can be your carry. But he can't force Naga Siren to not be your carry. There's just more ability for melee to get into the fight without the 'molasses-like' kiting effects or largely instant death.


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Avelden

Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
Hi guys. I'd just like to weigh in on what some of the Fiora goals are. The main problems we see with Fiora's current kit are that thematically, she doesn't deliver on the fantasy of being a skilled duelist/fencer, and mechanically, her game presence / play pattern / role doesn't line up with being a skilled duelist/fencer.

As far as the duelist fantasy goes, at least when I think of Fiora, I expect her to be extremely mobile but not just going in, she needs to be good at dancing in, out of, around and about combat. She should be about finding weaknesses in the opponent's play and finding the proper occasion to go on the attack. She shouldn't be about running in and bursting enemies down, she should be dealing high, steady DPS over time that is relatively target agnostic.

Mechanically speaking, I'd expect a duelist type champion to be mechanically intense. I expect opportunities to use my abilities at optimal times to counter out the enemy's champion. I want to have a lot to keep track of, but with clear success cases when I do well.

At the end of the day, live Fiora is a ball of stats with some untargetability thrown in; she pushes her buttons pretty much as fast as she can without a second thought, and she's also extremely snowballey. In short, she's bland with no cool opportunities to exchange gameplay between her and her lane opponent.

Some of the current goals including switching Fiora from an assassin to a melee DPS, and moving her lane from top to mid/jungle, and adding tons of 'outplay' functionality on her kit, as well as more mobility especially in terms of being able to disengage and re-engage at optimal times.

I can't share too much of exactly what the plans are for her kit, as I'm sure it's going to change tons during development, but I'll leave this here to hopefully stir up some excitement for our favorite rapier wielder. Also bear in mind this is an early, experimental Blade Waltz, and could certainly change drastically between now and remake launch time.

I also understand it's hard to understand exactly what this sample Blade Waltz does, given the lack of context on her basic spells... but rest assured, there are significant tweaks (or more) to all 4 of the other abilities, so hopefully your imaginations run wild
I'm not a hardcore Fiora player, but I would have to say my favorite thing about her (and the first thing I think of) is Blade Waltz in it's current state.. I know you don't like tower diving but not having that ability in her kit will be a huge nerf/takeaway from how she's currently being played. Please keep that in mind. I don't mean to be rude but as I read your responses here, we're going to essentially have a completely new champion and I'm not excited about this at all.. I like her being top lane, I like how her kit interacts right now (especially how Riposte works). Honestly to me it feels like you're taking an overly radical approach directly from the beginning and that has me very worried for this champion.


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ShinigamiKazuki

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Should have given him Skarner and Rengar.

I am sure he would have done 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000x's better than RiotScruffy did. But Rengar isn't sooo bad.. If you don't mind the major bugs and QoL buffs he needs.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avelden View Post
I know you don't like tower diving
Well one thing is that I do kind of like tower diving in the sense that the tower should be giving the divee an advantage-- one sufficient enough to make plays and turn things around.

But tower diving should perhaps not be "you die helplessly while the tower does NOTHING".

So there's a little bit too much variance in how towers work in League perhaps where Tanky DPS can just laugh at them but squishies die fast enough that they perhaps can't be aggressive at all.

Probably one of the major problems in League~


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JaFaR Ironclad

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Some mechanical ideas on the off chance the mega-brainstorming session didn't uncover them:

1.
Passive: Duelist - Fiora marks enemies she attacks, dealing bonus physical/true damage and healing Fiora whenever she strikes an unmarked target. The mark expires after 10 seconds or when Fiora moves [X] distance away from a marked enemy.

2.

E. Jump Advance/Disengage- Passive (either as a function of her innate, or given with the ability): Fiora marks enemies when she damages them.

Active- Jump Advance: Jumps a short distance toward the cursor.

Active- Disengage: If the passive mark is active and Fiora is in melee range of one, she instead jumps a longer distance away from that enemy toward the cursor, consuming the mark and stunning the opponent very briefly. (CD and stun duration scale lightly with rank, ability can be given some damage as a lever).

3.
Passive: Duelist- Fiora gains bonus [STATS] (say: movement speed and attack speed) while enemies are visible and all within a 135/180 degree arc of her (range = Fiora view range). The buff lasts for two seconds after this condition is no longer met (If no enemies are nearby or Fiora is being flanked; minions and champions can both flank).

4.
Passive: Duelist- Fiora gains additional movement speed and life steal for a short time whenever she critically strikes.

5.
R (Second cast): Coup De Grace- Ends the Blade Waltz. If the targeted enemy is below X% health, Fiora executes them for X% of their maximum health in true damage. (Picture the animation/effect like the first strike of Live blade waltz).


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Norr1N

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norr1N View Post
I like the sound of what's being done. As is, Fiora has always just been an all-in snowbally high DPS champion with a pretty face, relying overly on her ult. I hope the dancing duelist aspect shines through more in the new iteration.

Just to throw out some ideas, I like the thought of Fiora jumping in and out of combat. She could be a high-risk, high-reward skill-based champion reliant on co-ordination and timing. Not easy mode like Jax's dodge, but with shorter spammable spells which punish with long cooldowns if you mess up (e.g. like Sivir/Noc spellshields, not Yasuo's Q where it's no big deal if you miss it).

For example, below i've removed her invulnerability (and on-demand attack speed steroid) entirely, but buffed her mobility/Parry to work on spells so consideration and skill is required moreso to evade counterattacks (and even then, based on positioning, she might not be able to dodge as many as her live ult allows) whilst putting more power into shorter cooldowns (but still long enough for ult difference to be noticable) for rotating skills/combos without her live steroid. New ult fitted in but transferred power from bonus armor pen to a new passive -

Passive - Damaging an enemy unit with a spell (Q, possibly W) reveals a weakpoint and marks them for 4 seconds. The next autoattack consumes the mark to deal 6% of their missing HP as bonus damage (max 100 vs monsters)

Q - Lunges quickly through an enemy unit, travelling further if the target is close, whilst applying on-hit effects to the target. If the target dies to this attack, cooldown is refreshed

W - Deflect next basic attack/spell from a champion/large monster, returning % of dmg that would've been dealt as magic dmg. If target is nearby, they are also stunned for 1 second. Cooldown is doubled if missed (1.5 second window, does not work on champion AOE or turret shot dmg)

E - Sidesteps a short distance instantly in direction of cursor (akin to Riven's third hop or shield dash/Vayne's tumble), leaving an afterimage in her wake which provides vision of the area for 2 seconds

R - For the next 9 seconds, all basic ability cooldowns are reduced to 0.75 seconds and cost no mana

~

Thoughts? Primary damage relegated to her passive + Q, along with W and E for rewarding outplay potential via effective timing and positioning respectively.

Possible scenarios/combos for consideration:

#1. Deflect (W) an attack triggering stun, lunge (Q) in, sidestep (E) out
#2. Sidestep (E) a skillshot, lunge (Q) in, retreat with deflect (W) in reserve
#3. Lunge (Q) through a nearby minion with low HP, use reset Q and reduced gap to enemy target to engage
#4. Ult (R), deflect (W)/sidestep (E) attacks, whilst Q'ing in.. rotate skills as necessary during duel

Note: No invulnerability to save you if you mess up on timing, positioning, decision making, etc. Recklessly dueling an opponent should have consequences. However, the tools for mechanical outplay are provided above.
Hi Guinsoo. Glad to hear you're working on Fiora. Sounds good so far. Was wondering if you had any feedback on this post as a Game Designer. I know, you probably have a lot of people suggesting things. Even some minor feedback would be much appreciated.