Guinsoo is working on Fiora

First Riot Post
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50 Fists of Vi

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Well first of all, Guinsoo is back?!

Second of all, yeeeeeeesh!


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Narasimha

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starlighte View Post
One issue I see from the start with this ult is the fact that it can be entirely negated by kiting backwards or a bit of hard CC. The whole reason her live version of Blade Waltz works to some extent is that she is untargetable and will end up where she first targeted *unless they die*. Now, how are you possibly going to incorporate the same amount of "guaranteed damage" that Blade Waltz has in its live iteration, if all Fiora gets to do is spam her current abilities?

And to be frank, your current iteration of Blade Waltz sounds not only boring, but would be something that I would avoid playing a champion because of. Instead of Elise/Lulu/Jayce/Nidalee, where their kit's have 6 and sometimes 7 unique abilities, realistically what you're giving Fiora is 3 unique abilities. It is binary, boring, and easily counterable. The whole reason Fiora is even partially viable/competitive at the moment is because of the untargetability of her ult. If she can get into ult range, and ult, she has guaranteed her team her ultimate's damage. Sure, you could argue that there is no counterplay, and then I would point out that it is the same argument made against Vi's ult. If she goes out of position to use that ult for a pick, your team can collapse and she is done.

Please rethink this ultimate iteration. I do not see any positives for using this iteration as it currently stands. The idea of having only 3 real spells and an ultimate that you can't guarantee some damage on is incredibly lackluster. (Seeing as how her passive is terrible and has no thematic strength, perhaps you can work this ultimate's iteration in to her passive to some lesser degree, and actually give her a REAL 4th spell.)
Ok, Hard CC does not count as a counter. Why? Because its screws over anything not named 'Olaf' or 'Poppy'. Second, assuming her Lunge stays the same, kiting backwards no longer works because she could cast it EVERY second. Third, attacking everything in sight is the last thing a fencer should be doing. A fencer should be focused on the target in front of him/her. Fourth, the positives are that it brings out her offensive capabilities. She will be able to all in like never before. She might not be able to 100-0 anyone anymore, but she'll be able to last out longer fights. Sure, she'll be a bit more vulnerable, but thats the fun of it.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
People don't like change.
Wellllll Guinsoo I'll tell you a dark little secret~

If you make it sound awesome, people may tend to like it more!

A lot of concerns here are because of stuff like Karma and Skarner, but like I'm pretty sure just from reading your post that you personally would not do a complete gameplay/aesthetic 'delete' like in Karma but others might not see that.

So that can make any secrecy regarding reworks really scary for people is all.

If it is actually better and people can easily see that is perhaps what does it rather than just 'change' itself.


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AntiSkillshot

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
OK, I feel like I used the wrong terminology when I said "poke enemies down." I edited my first post to "deal steady, high DPS that is relatively target agnostic." While I mostly agree with you that fencing is all about scoring OHKOs, well obviously that type of gameplay isn't great for any type of PvP game. The way we're choosing to handle this is to give her strong, steady DPS, but have it come in bigger chunks that one might anticipate from a steady DPS champion. For example her Riposte has heavily negative implications on her outgoing DPS... unless she blocks a significant spell or attack, at which point she can respond with a very hard hitting Thrust.

In general we want her to feel good (and be greatly rewarded) for using her abilities properly. While that can't be in the form of OHKOs, I think the next best thing is "big chunks of damage."
Pokemon has four OHKO moves, though. Fissure, sheer cold, guillotine, and horn drill. Though, the way that game works, OHKOs can work in its PvP environment.


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Critmaster Garen

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Senior Member

04-06-2014

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Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
That's not CCing her.
so?

some champions can break the ult by ccing her, some can counter it with stealth, some have other means of avoiding it. zed for example activates his own ult to cancel hers. and any ap champ she could possibly face can comfortably build zonyas from seekers armguard against her.

the amount of champs who can overall simply cancel and evade her ult is not small at all.

and even if she initially snowballs her lane, she will face a lot of these champions in teamfights, who can prevent her from using that advantage.

you can find yourself rolling over your lane opponent like he was nothing, only to have your ult interrupted from the enemy support or mage and instantly blow up in teamfights.


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Starlighte

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narasimha View Post
Ok, Hard CC does not count as a counter. Why? Because its screws over anything not named 'Olaf' or 'Poppy'. Second, assuming her Lunge stays the same, kiting backwards no longer works because she could cast it EVERY second. Third, attacking everything in sight is the last thing a fencer should be doing. A fencer should be focused on the target in front of him/her. Fourth, the positives are that it brings out her offensive capabilities. She will be able to all in like never before. She might not be able to 100-0 anyone anymore, but she'll be able to last out longer fights. Sure, she'll be a bit more vulnerable, but thats the fun of it.
Remind me what is fun about only having 3 real abilities to use?


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Cacahao

Member

04-06-2014

I don't know if you want some ideas feedback here, but something that I really would like to see in fiora's kit is something like her actual double lunge, but with the first one doing a step backwards, similar to what real fencers do to "test" enemy defenses, and then a the second lunge.

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As I see it, it should be like:
First lunge: same as now, but step backwards (300 units, for example), deals 50% of it's actual damage, and stun the target briefly (0.3 secs or so)

Second lunge: with this she could do 150% of it's actual damage.

In addition, I would give her some "quality of life" changes, as let her lunge apply on hit effects and crit chance.
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This should give her some "dance potential" with the first cast, and allow you to decide if you want to go on real harass and dive in, or decide if you prefer to play a bit more safe. And it feels like a fencer move.

And the on hit effects and crit chance is because I hate to see a ranged autoattack like GP applying this while fiora's one does not, and should buff her carry build.


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Maxtras

Senior Member

04-06-2014

how would you keep fiora out of focus when you take away her old ultimate?
master yi for example has alpha strike that makes him for about 1 second untargetable
how would she be played in teamfights?


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Critmaster Garen

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Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxtras View Post
how would you keep fiora out of focus when you take away her old ultimate?
master yi for example has alpha strike that makes him for about 1 second untargetable
how would she be played in teamfights?
riposte, and high mobility to disengage and reposition.

they should give her some synergy with movement speed items like yasuo does.


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Silver Grimalkin

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiSkillshot View Post
Pokemon has four OHKO moves, though. Fissure, sheer cold, guillotine, and horn drill. Though, the way that game works, OHKOs can work in its PvP environment.
The OHKO moves have a locked 30% accuracy and outright fail on targets of a higher level. Furthermore, OHKO moves affect your ability to interact in league far more than they do in the standard pokemon competitive environment. OHKO in league means you're done until your death timer is over, a OHKO in pokemon means you're a sixth of the way to being done. They're incomparable.