The Gragas Followup Thread

First Riot Post
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CMD Ruby Rose

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Have you just dropped the Viktor augment rework or what?


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Lastbeliever

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post

Some changes I will be making for the next patch regardless of his balance.

Gragas will not auto acquire a target after E if he has W buff active.
Gragas E hitbox adjustments to make sure you hit the units you feel you should be hitting
Gragas W autoattack buff lasts 1 second longer

His W, even if you are able to immediately acquire a target, feels SO BAD. Bad enough that if I can't queue it up before a fight, I am actually hesitant to use it at all in the fight. While I appreciate that you want to increase the autoattack buff by one second, there are so many issues with this skill I almost don't know where to being. But here are the most important two points to me:

-W not resetting his auto timer feels awful. Every other ability, seemingly, that modifies autos like this has a reset component and this just feels...awkward. This seems impossible with an ability that has a built in channel obviously, but I wonder if you aren't just holding on to that portion of the skill for the sake of nostalgia and flavor. I don't have a realistic solution to propose here just yet.
-The damage reduction portion feels unresponsive and unsatisfying. There is too much planning involved and too little a payoff for successfully doing so. If you want it to be a high-risk high-reward skill, like those that usually require this kind of foresight, I would consider significantly increasing the percentage of damage reduced. Or, you could increase the duration of the spell at the expense cooldown in order to keep up time at a sane level. Either way, the reward would feel real if it either felt as though it had either an impact or a meaningful window.

I actually think the rest of your changes feel fine enough. I am totally okay with removing the attack speed slow from Q, even if it would actually make him more of the tanky "fat fighter" than a slow that he already had in his kit. The barrels scaling with "fermentation" is a pretty cool gimmick and actually does add some depth to his gameplay which I like.

I do not, however like the knockback on his E. This feels really out of place and tacked-on for the sake of flavor-cohesion (similar to the channel remaining on W) in a skill that is a charge forward from a large man. If its done for this reason, why not make it a position neutral knock-up instead of a stun? Still provides the visual of a thunderous impact, but it also won't force your most reliable tool for landing heavy fermented Q's to occasionally self-defeat and knock them out of the detonation radius. I know there might be a push-pull here that adds "depth and decision making", but I'm not entirely sure that it was intentional if there is.

Thanks for reading!

tl;dr - Right now W, feels like you slow yourself down just to receive an awkward autoattack buff that simply makes up for the damage you missed by not casting spells or autoattacking during the channel. The knockback on E feels exclusively cosmetic and should be combined with the stun into a position-neutral knock-up.


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Onimus Terlain

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Senior Member

04-04-2014

As soon as I saw the rework, I was talking to my friend.

He's a mid main. I'm a jungle main.

I was talking to him about how excited I was for the new rework, I could take Gragas back into the jungle.

He said what rework.

So I showed him.

He became silent, and just....sad. He loved AP mid Gragas and he said he probably wouldn't play him there if the changes went through.

Jungle Gragas came out on top. Mid Gragas went into the trash bin.

I think that's a very fair judgement of this rework.

I'm super excited. I am going to take him into the jungle this weekend and hopefully I get some good results with him.


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Wyld Tentomon

Senior Member

04-04-2014

I really am pissed that my Gragas isnt Gragas anymore. Instead of an awesome cask throwing mage, he's just a fat **** who slams people. Get ****ed Riot.


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Kadocks

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onimus Terlain View Post

He loved AP mid Gragas and he said he probably wouldn't play him there if the changes went through.
.
Who doesn't like free elo?


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FFS All is OP

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Gragas support seems pretty legit. I expect to see a good deal of it in our future.
LOLOLOLOL

I'd think this was a parody account at this point.

This is the guy who handled skarner and rengar reworks, folks.


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RickDodger

Senior Member

04-04-2014

... Now that I think about it... AP mid gragas can still mid. Farming means you're throwing your cask to let it go the full 4 seconds and burst, thus making your opponent hesitant of going in to get the last hit.

W is...well a CS tool. Each cast of it lets you proc your passive every 8 seconds, and the strong on-hit effect is for last hitting minions or champions that get too close to try and CS.

E lets you knock away enemies and stun them, disrupt channel abilities, and deal good AP damage on hit in impact. It's still good for wave clearing at high CDR, and ... well it can still manage itself well.


I just say either eliminate the channel time on W or make his DR last 4 seconds so that 1 wasted second of channel time means you have 3 seconds to resist poke in lane.


The reasoning behind this giant skewer in the W and the removal of attack speed slow is so he won't be just a champ who brawls it out constantly in a fight. Everyone complained about his super high DR and consistently ongoing HP regeneration from his passive due to shortened cooldowns. Plus people were feeling that the whole 'casket bursts after a duration or prematurely' thing was rather silly if it did nothing else as a bonus while doing so. All gragas had to do was drink his beer and his DR handled the rest while building armor and MR to also help compensate for a tankier Q and E mage.

Anyone that was building AD on him as a bruiser would go for making his Q more utility and focus more on his W, thus making him even more relentless in action. I used to laugh my head off when playing this kind of gragas in Aram. Barrels kept slowing enemies DPS down, my DR and frozen heart was doing the rest, and my passive was up again and again since having such high CDR from my items sustaining me. People were crying WHY WON'T THIS ****ING FATASS DIE!!!!!!!

But being in their shoes...i can tell it was unhealthy. This rework kept his ability to where he can regain health every 8 seconds instead of constantly gaining high regen over time from ability casts. His W now helps with last hitting enemy minions since it costs nothing and, HEY, it has super good damage to smack a minion with! Plus you get DR so an enemy can't poke you out of getting your CS score up.

Enemies bothering you in lane, no problem. Throw a barrel and threaten to explode it in their face if they get too close to CS your minion wave. Or just let it channel for the full 4 seconds and bye bye minion wave.

Enemy tries to engage you in lane, no problem. Just dash, stun, and then leave a barrel and walk away laughing like a drunken bastard. Or use your ult to make a giant teamfight scatter to the four corners and you make them fight on YOUR terms!


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FFS All is OP

Senior Member

04-04-2014

@people in this thread who want a refund or whatever - Now you know how trundle, karma, skarner, katarina, yi, etc. players feel.

I personally haven't given these clowns at riot a penny since they killed off trundle and replaced him with some douchy looking frost troll. I had skins for him that looked altered completely, and I couldn't have the old voice on a skin I paid for.


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RickDodger

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Bump


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Vandrike

Junior Member

04-04-2014

The Biggest problems i'm seeing with gragas. (Although ive only been playing him a couple of games.) Is that his drinking channel is very awkward when trying to use it in a battle, and his mana consumption.
Lvl 1 q and e costs 110 mana, that is about half of his entire mana pool. It is very hard to engage in a continued chase early because without the mana regain of his old W he OOMs very fast. The best way to not OOM is just to use barrels to clear the wave from afar, but that limits his interactions in lane and creates a boring laning phase.
I hope the extra duration on his attack buff will help the awkwardness of his drunken rage but i feel like gragas needs something to help him with his mana since he now needs to build tanky items early or risk falling behind other top laners.