Rengar Thread of Bolas and Roaring

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Messaiga

Senior Member

04-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanCyclone View Post
I already got my Rengar refund, thanks for ruining one the best champs you guys have made.
You could refund Rengar and go to the Kha'Zix train of freelo, or you could be a big Rengar fan and be hopeful that he will be buffed (he probably will, cause 20 extra damage @ level 1 Q, that's nearly nothing).

I'm still playing Rengar cause he is a unique champion in his theme, but I am hopeful that he receives the small changes he needs to be powerful when played correctly.


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BRYBGR

Junior Member

04-05-2014

changing name on a thread... help.


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CaptainWinget

Junior Member

04-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Things like damage numbers are never set in stone. We will make adjustments to his damage if we overdid the changes. Real data will give us lots of information about how the changes turned out: Is his early game too weak? Is his late game too strong? etc.. Depending on what we find, adjustments will be made. It's unfortunate that we cant play millions of test games with any changes before they release, but the least we can do is respond to the real data once the changes are live.
Ok well as of now I am seeing his early game damage is weak which is attempted to be counteracted by late game damage. The late game damage spike that was implemented however, is strange it is as if some games I am surprised by the damage I do with a single Q (only seen in like 1 game and I built 6 straight AD items no defense), but often then not and on a fairly consistent basis I find myself never finding a damage spike. That brings me to another point I want that level 2 all in back, there is no reason to make me play safely and eventually scale that is boring and not what Rengar players are looking for. We want a high risk high reward champion designed around out playing your opponent. I do not understand if I get fed with this character I still can not carry. That is a problem, if a fed assassin is unable to delete a squishy farming alone due to sheer lack of burst damage numbers do need to be adjusted as well as flow of his Q, which you said hopefully you would address soon. Well anyways thanks for responding back to all of this feedback it is appreciated.


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AntiSkillshot

Senior Member

04-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm System View Post
I urge every player that was hurt by this Rengar rework to vow not to purchase any more RP from Riot until they fix our champion. I, for one, will not be purchasing RP until they fix him. If I can do without Rengar, I can do without skins.
So be it. None of the SKT 1 skins were interesting, anyways.


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AntiSkillshot

Senior Member

04-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
As far as items, we're not designing towards any "right" way to build Rengar. He scales well with both offensive and defensive items and that is something that is cool about him as a character.
How? How does he "Scale" defensively? He doesn't have armor/MR scaling on his defensive ability. His heal no longer scales with health...
HOW? HOW DOES HE SCALE DEFENSIVELY?


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VoyMachoboy

Senior Member

04-05-2014

You people are funny.


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LeFrenchAvenger

Junior Member

04-05-2014

Had an idea while taking a shower (where all the best ideas are conceived).

Completely from a non-gameplay, thematic viewpoint, so may not work as well as it does in my head, mind you.

Why does Rengar's W even do damage? All he does is yell relly loud. What if instead of damage it applied a brief CC, (fear- although I dont like the idea of it being an interrupt, movement/as debuff, or something) that is divided amongst targets hit. Target is alone- Rengar screams at them, target poops their pants and is feared for longer. Target is with team- Rengar screams at them, not quite so scary.

This could allow more damage to go into his Q as well, as it currently feels like.. nothing. The isolation bonus allows him to compare more directly to Kha'Zix as well, showing more parallels between the two. Furthermore, Rengar now has more options- he can jump into an entire team and W, giving himself more bonus stats, or he can wait until someone breaks away from their team and pick them off (like a hunter or something).

As is, I feel the W encougrages Rengar to jump into team fights, which seems out of character for someone that should (I think) be about stalking enemies and picking them off.

Anyways, just my 2 cents worth.


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Hawkefire

Senior Member

04-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm System View Post
Scruffy, there really isn't much I can say to you or complain about to you that hasn't already been addressed. However, I would like to reiterate the fact that you took a perfectly good assassin and nerfed his damage so much that it is almost completely unviable to build him as an assassin any longer.

If the reason for this change was to add counter-play to Rengar, which people claimed there was none for the times when he had ult up, I ask you this: Why not remind players about pink wards and upgraded sweeper trinkets?

It's almost as if you are screaming at us, "People complained about not being able to see him coming, despite it only costing 100 gold, but instead of recommending that the players spend 100 gold to protect themselves, I just decided to nerf him harder than any champion has ever been nerfed before."

We want Rengar back. He was a champion that excelled at being an assassin. Now he is a champion that is a terrible assassin, and one that doesn't excel at anything else. The biggest impact he has in a team fight now is keeping full ferocity stacked to intimidate the other team from jumping on a carry. That's it.

I'm not exaggerating at all when I say this, but I legitimately feel as if you nerfed Rengar's damage by AT LEAST 40%. I have hundreds of games with Rengar, and I noticed this the first game I played after the rework. Afterwards, I went to watch NinFang's stream (and he is probably the best Rengar player on the planet). Know what he said about it? It was terrible, he was too weak to burst anyone, he excelled at nothing, and that he has never seen a rework this bad. And do you know what? Most of the playerbase that enjoyed playing Rengar agrees wholeheartedly with him. That should MEAN SOMETHING to you Scruffy.



If you say that you care about the community and the opinions of the players, then do this for us: Be COMPLETELY TRANSPARENT with your current and planned changes for Rengar, with the full reasonings behind each change, and why you think each change was deserved. If you do that, then you will certainly be able to get constructive and helpful feedback that will, in turn, allow you to change the champion to meet your needs without ruining him completely as a character anyone wants to play.

If you say you care, then just do that. Be transparent. It costs you literally nothing and isn't hard at all. Telling the players you care with empty words means nothing and tells us nothing and does nothing to help your credibility towards the claim. Show us.

I urge every player that was hurt by this Rengar rework to vow not to purchase any more RP from Riot until they fix our champion. I, for one, will not be purchasing RP until they fix him. If I can do without Rengar, I can do without skins.
I would like to expand on this a bit.

Riot, before you go trying to change the identity of a champion (in Rengar's case from an assassin to a bruiser/tank. In Skarners case to a.....well I don't even know).....I urge you to think VERY CAREFULLY ABOUT IT. ASK the people before changing identities, and more importantly RESPOND and TAKE those ideas into account (this ESPECIALLY goes for the Skarner rework), if the community overwhelmingly says "LEAVE HIS IDENTITY ALONE!" Then you darn well should listen! And I can definitely tell you that the vast majority of Rengar players did not want his identity touched.


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bossmann1313

Member

04-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Things like damage numbers are never set in stone. We will make adjustments to his damage if we overdid the changes. Real data will give us lots of information about how the changes turned out: Is his early game too weak? Is his late game too strong? etc.. Depending on what we find, adjustments will be made. It's unfortunate that we cant play millions of test games with any changes before they release, but the least we can do is respond to the real data once the changes are live.
Ok well since everyone is clearly stating that his damage is too weak buff it. Simple


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Storm System

Junior Member

04-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Things like damage numbers are never set in stone. We will make adjustments to his damage if we overdid the changes. Real data will give us lots of information about how the changes turned out: Is his early game too weak? Is his late game too strong? etc.. Depending on what we find, adjustments will be made. It's unfortunate that we cant play millions of test games with any changes before they release, but the least we can do is respond to the real data once the changes are live.

Thank you for replying.

I will give you guys some time to work on specific numbers and ratios. However, here is where you should start:

Level 1 Q: It's an AA reset with +20 damage. Vayne's tumble is WAY better than this. +20? That is horrendous. Also, it has been reiterated that the attack speed removal was bad. You did TWO THINGS to nerf the Q. You removed a LOT of damage AND all attack speed. Either do one, or the other. Don't do both. OR do a small damage reduction and a small attack speed removal....

OR just leave his Q alone.

The W change was fine for the most part, as it can be considered a nerf/buff depending on how you look at it. Change isnt necessarily bad in this aspect. I feel like the ferocity W could use a slight buff when at higher HP levels, but that's just my opinion.

I also like the direction you are going with the E, but it needs to have a faster missile speed and slightly higher damage (around 20% more imo). It makes laning more difficult, as the E is harder to land, but it is a slightly better mechanism for a jungler.

As far as the ult goes, you already said that you are going to try out some changes regarding would-be vision on Rengar if he's in ult. That seems decent, but you should also consider a Nocturne-like alert that is either global or semi-global. In fact, if you made the alert radius similar to the size of Xerath's ult, but removed the second alert when he gets REALLY close (that one is dumb imo), then the ult ALERT changes would be perfect. As far as the move speed for the ult goes, it needs a slight buff, another 10% would do. Tinker with the numbers I've given you so far and I assure you that you will be in a better place than you are currently.



EDIT: After playing with the new Rengar in the jungle some more and testing some different builds out, I have to say that my opinion has SOMEWHAT changed. However, the changes they made to him still hurt his early game a lot. If you can make it to the late game and do well throughout the course of the game, then you will be close to what Rengar was before due to the level scaling on his abilities. However, through the early-mid game, Rengar still needs some love, especially towards his Q scaling.

If you up the damage on his Q by around, say, 20-30% at levels 1-11, and increase the missile speed on his E by around 20-30%, as well as implement the new NEW changes to his ult you said you are planning, I will actually be very pleased with this rework Scruffy. I hope that you get to read this, as I am giving you honest feedback and not just raging. I believe this will truly make the rework what you wanted it to be.